1. We have added a Gift Upgrades feature that allows you to gift an account upgrade to another member, just in time for the holiday season. You can see the gift option when going to the Account Upgrades screen, or on any user profile screen.
    Dismiss Notice

How do I kill happiness?

Discussion in 'Community Patch Project' started by Wumper, Jan 23, 2019.

  1. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

    Joined:
    Dec 31, 2005
    Messages:
    5,305
    G, what your effectively saying is the real opponent in VP is not the AI, its the happiness system. Basically the external limits don't really exist, its only my internal limits that stop unlimited play.

    I don't think your giving your AI enough credit, if your expanding sloppily and don't defend well your cities will get taken. AIs with strong infrastructure will overtake a player that is expanding a lot.
     
    CppMaster and BiteInTheMark like this.
  2. Wumper

    Wumper Chieftain

    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2016
    Messages:
    36
    I feel like you over estimate how effective the ui is. Looking at my city now, 1 unhappiness from distress, deficit of 5.2 . Will an armory help? It doesn't say by how much the needs will be reduced, nor is it obvious if it will actually help me get rid of that. Will an armory and a stoneworks together solve the problem? Time to break out a calculator if you wanna know

    It says that with growth I will get 1 more unhappiness form poverty and bordeom. What will be the new deficit? Will X or Y building help with that?

    Sure, the information is there but it's not nearly as obvious as it should be. Vanilla, you just look at the happiness and you see 10, means you can take the -4 hit from a new city and still not be in immediate danger of going into unhappiness. Or you can hook up 2 more luxuries and be safe, even with 2 new cities. Here, even after going trough it all it's possible that for some unkown reason you will loose 10 unhappines in a single turn.

    I click next turn and I'm in -1 from +1. Where did I loose that? Do I have to cycle trough 6 cities and keep in mind all that information to know such a simple thing?

    And what's the connection between large empires and happiness swings? Sure, large empires should be harder to hold together, doesn't mean that a very stable empire with 40 happiness should fall into distress in a single turn for no reason.
     
  3. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2010
    Messages:
    17,451
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Little Rock
    That's a misconstruction. My point is that, without internal checks, expansion becomes a sandbox. I wasn't talking about the AI.

    There's an air of hostility here - I'm not trying to provoke you. As I said, you do you, play how you want. My point stands, though, that the game is significantly easier without a happiness system. It's the equivalent of disabling the corruption mechanics of Civ3/4.

    Unhappiness metrics only change when cities grow. So, theoretically, if a city continues to have the same yields from the moment it grows until the next time it grows (or those yields go up, the more likely candidate), the city's unhappiness base will stay the same. In a small empire, the chance of more than one city increasing its pop count on the same turn is pretty low. A large enough empire, however, will have an increased chance of multiple cities growing on the same turn, thus leading to a bump of unhappiness.

    IMO the yield-specific info in the cityview is not needed to stay happy. You don't need a calculator. If you start encountering Distress, focus on building improvements/buildings that increase food/production in the city, send an internal trade route, or - if truly in a pinch - turn on the farming process for a bit until you can stabilize it. If you encounter Boredom, move some great works around, send an international trade route from the city, etc. The system's greatest strength, and the reason it's superior to anything vanilla tried to do, is that it gives internal development an antagonistic role in your empire. Without this antagonism, the game is solely about external diplomacy, which - even in VP - is still pretty dry.

    Comparing VP to vanilla is pointless - the majority of vanilla civ's systems were brain-dead and devoid of any strategy. Throw it all out, and focus on making cities that have a solid balance of yield types, or endure a bit of yield-specific unhappiness in cities if you want to specialize them a bit.

    G
     
  4. tu_79

    tu_79 Deity

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2016
    Messages:
    6,562
    Location:
    Malaga (Spain)
    About the calculator thing, I'm finding again and again players that seem to not be able to enjoy a game if they don't know exactly how many yields they will gain for every single action.

    Although it is very rational to make informed decisions, a bit of uncertainty is what makes the game replayable.
     
    vyyt likes this.
  5. glider1

    glider1 Deity

    Joined:
    May 29, 2006
    Messages:
    2,784
    Location:
    Where animals hop not run
    Good point Tu. I think us humans we don't like the feeling of uncertainty probably more pronounced today because a game is supposed to be escapism from what is now a very uncertain real world we feel increasingly more uncomfortable in. If it were truly about informed decisions we would be unable to function paralyzed by indecision. Feelings actually help us to act.

    Thing is that in VP, you spend so much time and effort trying to build up your empire you become emotionally invested and there is potentially a lot to loose unless you can handle failure.

    Like the way that in VP you can scale up the risk factors according to your taste by playing safe and tall or risky and wide.
     
  6. Moi Magnus

    Moi Magnus Emperor

    Joined:
    Mar 1, 2015
    Messages:
    1,836
    I perfectly understand them.
    I'm the kind of guy that can't play a new game without the wiki open. (that's an exageration, of course, but the idea is there).
    There is this "I need an immediate and simple feedback from all my actions" point of view. Because if I don't have immediate and simple feedback, I'm in the paralysis of "consequences of this actions are too far away in the future, or too complex, I can't compute them, so I don't compute anything at all and ignore this part of the game".
    (Which is, to be honest, one of the reason why I didn't build any army when I was a beginner at Civ. Conquest was the kind of thing that I couldn't compute, so just ignored it.)

    And yields are perfect for that: they give a lot of immidiate and simple feeback (you instant yields and yield per turn of a lot of kind), while not fully determining the long term consequences (you have now idea how usefull will be those yields in the future, and how they compare to each others)

    I just prefer reacting using perfectly-known consequences to unexpected, uncertains, and random effect, than making choices with unexpected, uncertain and random consequences. (in a lesser way for randomness, which is ok if you have a good estimation of the result)
     
    Mauro Mezzina likes this.
  7. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

    Joined:
    Dec 31, 2005
    Messages:
    5,305
    Ultimately this is a key component of game design, especially in board games. Players like clear and important decisions...it’s part of what differentiates games from the murkiness of real life.

    That’s doesn’t mean a decision has to be simple, it can be very strategic and require a lot of thought.

    The decision can also have uncertainty, but there’s a difference between informed uncertainty and uncertainty through a lack of understanding.

    If I roll a dice, I know what my odds are...or at least close enough. That has uncertainty, but it’s uncertainty I can plan for, which is a part of many games.

    The “bad uncertainty” is when I don’t understand the consequence of my choice. Is choosing A good? Um...maybe?

    The concern brought up...which is not a new concern...is thst the happiness system is complex and obscure, so it’s hard to be informed about your choices.

    Building markets should help my poverty...well maybe. How much?...it’s a bit unclear. Will starting two new cities cause an unhappiness spiral? Again, hard to know for sure...and often I won’t know for certain until 40 turns later.

    The UI is leagues better than it used to be at providing info for the system...but the system remains complicated and a bit obscure. The system has advantages, but this remains a weakness of the model
     
    cammcken and Mauro Mezzina like this.
  8. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2010
    Messages:
    17,451
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Little Rock
    It is definitely complicated. But I view that as a positive. As I said earlier, the absence of internal antagonism is one of the biggest weaknesses of 4x games.

    G
     
  9. Vektic

    Vektic Chieftain

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2018
    Messages:
    13
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Rostock, Germany
    G has a point, and I suggest you follow his advice for a more enjoyable and competitive game. Nonetheless it`s up to you how to handle your happiness problems, so if yo're set on your decision I can recommend the mod "Really Advanced Setup", you'll find it in the Steam Workshop. It gives you the option to disable the Happiness system altogether in the setup of your game.
     
    vyyt likes this.
  10. ryanmusante

    ryanmusante Regular Supporter

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2018
    Messages:
    983
    Gender:
    Male
  11. CppMaster

    CppMaster King

    Joined:
    Feb 13, 2018
    Messages:
    847
    Location:
    Poland
    This is just plain wrong. AI is what "stop or slow you from doing whatever you want, whenever you want" and that's the "incentive for smart or precise play", because otherwise AI will just play better and win.
    Why would you exclude AI from the equation when it has the biggest factor? Happiness almost never restrict me from expansion. It's always AI that take territory. Happiness just occasionally make me build some need reduction buildings and is taken into account when deciding if I should annex/puppet/raze a city.
     
  12. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2010
    Messages:
    17,451
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Little Rock
    Without happiness there’s nothing to stop you from steamrolling and staying at war forever.

    G
     
  13. CppMaster

    CppMaster King

    Joined:
    Feb 13, 2018
    Messages:
    847
    Location:
    Poland
    It doesn't mean that I'll progress with that war or win the game eventually. I could even fall behind if I'm starting losing cities by AIs conquest.
     
  14. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

    Joined:
    Dec 31, 2005
    Messages:
    5,305
    Wouldn’t WW eventually destroy your supply limit?
     
  15. Aristos

    Aristos Lightseeker

    Joined:
    Dec 11, 2001
    Messages:
    3,575
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Deep inside...
    That's what you have Civ 6 for. Now with mountain-jumping death robots! :crazyeye:
     
    vyyt likes this.
  16. glider1

    glider1 Deity

    Joined:
    May 29, 2006
    Messages:
    2,784
    Location:
    Where animals hop not run
    That is a good idea to better inform exactly the the sources of the changes. Adds a lot of flavour too. Still got it on the to-do-list to make a proper mod out of it. There is quite a bit of work needed but it is already useful. Am also working on another mod.
     
    ryanmusante likes this.
  17. cammcken

    cammcken Warlord

    Joined:
    Jul 25, 2012
    Messages:
    202
    Location:
    Massachusetts, USA
    I'm fine with happiness, but my personal pet peeve is city planning. How many tiles between each city, and how am I going to arrange improvements?

    In Civ4, when each city got 20 tiles, I used to be able to count up how many mines/lumbermills I'd have and how many farms I'd have, and immediately know whether I'd have enough food to work all tiles plus specialists. If I don't, I know it's okay to chop a few forests to make farms.

    Let's not talk about vanilla Civ5, but skip to Vox Populi. The dynamic happiness system is cool, and I appreciate all the effort put into balancing it and making it flow, but now there's no benchmark for my city's final population count. I could use 30, for the maximum 30 tiles each city can command, but that's not optimum in VP for a number of reasons. Even if I had a number, I still couldn't use it to predict how many farms I need, because I'll need more than that amount. With growth slower and more important, I need to keep a significant surplus if I ever want to reach that number.

    TLDR: Before I build that city and before I cut that forest, I wish I could know whether my city will be food-starved or production-starved 2000 years down the line.
     
  18. civplayer33

    civplayer33 King

    Joined:
    Sep 11, 2017
    Messages:
    675
    Hah, don't we all. I think it's actually a good thing that city development is somewhat unpredictable as it's more engaging and reflects the dynamic nature of empires. It's not just the happiness system, either, it's what social policies and ideologies you pick, what religion, what function the city has or will have to adopt in your empire etc.
    The downside, of course, is that in order to optimally tune the empire one has to go through all the cities every couple of turns to make adjustments, even without picking individual tiles manually, I've found; though in my experience the automatic system does okay most of the time and setting a different focus every once in a while can suffice, which saves a lot of time, though sometimes manual specialist and tile control is still needed.

    Overall I think the way to approach this is to step down difficulty levels if the micromanaging gets too annoying; if you move from Emperor to Prince you can probably leave everything, including Workers, on auto and it'll be fine, while on Deity you'd have to manually handle everything yourself to make sure you have a good chance at winning.
     
    cammcken and vyyt like this.
  19. vyyt

    vyyt Emperor

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2005
    Messages:
    1,691
    Location:
    Czech Republic
    Civ (even Civ4) is a permanently changing experience. I am afraid that what you want is impossible to attain (personally I would also find it unfun, I want some uncertainty in the game).

    Also, not sure if I understood correctly, but you can estimate quite well, how the city will perform based on the terrain. Cutting 1 forest or not does not make much difference and you can always fine tune your cities with specialists (and micromanage).

    Rather than food/production starved, I would be afraid of growing too fast too much and then getting hit by unhappiness from undeveloped infrastructure.

    EDIT: @civplayer33 beat me to it :)
     
  20. vyyt

    vyyt Emperor

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2005
    Messages:
    1,691
    Location:
    Czech Republic
    Also with well developed big cities in later game eras, you will run specialists and not that many tiles. You will be switching between different types of tiles based on what you need and you should have a mix of everything. You are not supposed to grow indefinitely.
     
    civplayer33 likes this.

Share This Page