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How do I optimize the "pointyness" of my stick.

Discussion in 'Civ5 - General Discussions' started by ChickenSandwich, Nov 7, 2010.

  1. ChickenSandwich

    ChickenSandwich Chieftain

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    Question: How is the "Soldiers" demographic score calculated? (This is the number used to rank the "pointies sticks" chart) And more importantly, can you fudge the numbers to deter attacks by other Civs?

    Correct me if I'm wrong but-
    1: The soldier count and possibly positioning ofof those units is/are the only criteria the AI uses to assess your military strength.
    2: At present, the Soldier count is a terrible measure of actual strength as it doesn't fully account for technical superiority or unit type.

    These two factors frequently combine to produce mutually detrimental wars and have caused me to lose games. One solution is to complain about poor game design. My work around is to figure out how the score is calculated, and play the system. So far, I haven't had much luck on this so I'm asking for help.

    For an example, this probably sounds familiar to most people. A small army of technologically superior units, say Riflemen, produce a low score (relatively) on the Soldiers demographic. A neighboring AI with a large Soldier-score sees this and declares war, figuring it's an easy conquest:crazyeye:. Predictably, the small army of Riflemen completely annihilate the the incoming swarms of chump units, say longswordsmen. Even worse, the attackers soldier-score is grossly inflated by large numbers of scouts and naval units so the battle is even more pathetic. So the attack goes ahead and it's like throwing tomatoes at a brick wall. Ugly. Piles of dead chumps everywhere:sad:, cat's and dogs living together, mass hysteria. When the dust settles however, the defender still loses units, say 25-35%, had to turtle the workers for the duration of the battle and devote a ton of cognitive focus to tactics. Everybody loses. Especially when the next neighbor comes knocking.

    So the larger question is, how do I optimize my soldier score? How do I make my big dangerous stick, look like a big pointy stick? Deterrence is clearly the better option here.

    b:king:
     
  2. Terefor

    Terefor Chieftain

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    Is that a innocent innuendo? ;)
     
  3. Superluminal

    Superluminal Warlord

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    I am super hungry and I see you. I will not participate in this thread. Build more units is all I'll say.
     
  4. Melkus

    Melkus Chieftain

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    It generally helps to fortify your most advanced units on the border, where the AI can see them. They may complain once in a while that you're massing troops, but they will be less likely to attack.
     
  5. Soronery

    Soronery Prince

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    why does this thread sound dirty....
     
  6. testdummy653

    testdummy653 Prince

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    Okay, this is what i observed.

    The more military units you have increases your military (pointyest) score, this is obvious. The higher your units on the tech tree is also in your score.

    Tips:
    Scouts don't really add a lot of points.
    But having a high tech navy does seem to increase your score a lot.
    Having your military near a possible aggressor seems to deter the computer from attacking. (I done this were the enemy had 278,000 points(he was the same tech level), while i had about 178,000).

    A controversial tip:
    Increasing your army to fast (by buying or producing or upgrading) may causing multiple declarations of war
     
  7. AriochIV

    AriochIV Analyst

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    It's probably the same as the military graph score in Civ IV: each unit has a point value, and the stronger/higher tech the unit, the higher the score.
     
  8. ChickenSandwich

    ChickenSandwich Chieftain

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    Yeah, If there was a preset value for each unit then modders could probably pull that info out of a data file.Then I could optimize according to how I value those units. If it's something else, like a formula, that could be harder to find. Im just going to start tracking this number and see if I can figure it out, unit by unit.


    Also, it's nice to see the consensus regarding unit placement and deterrence. I'm make sure I show off my best units when I want to be left alone.
    b
     
  9. Terrance888

    Terrance888 Discord Reigns

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    You need to push very hard to build units quicky for war, or if it is way to low. Then you to push them toward the border so they can see and be scared. Continue pushing troops out of cities and to the border. If it all goes to splat, then smash through them and leave wet blood everywhere.
     
  10. cf_nz

    cf_nz Prince

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  11. pi-r8

    pi-r8 Luddite

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    Bear in mind you have to wait a turn for new units to show up on your demographics.
     
  12. testdummy653

    testdummy653 Prince

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    Really? i don't think thats true... When i go to war with an AI that has an army in the Number 1 spot, i'm pretty sure i get an updated demographic when i kill two or three of his units, before i end the turn.
     
  13. Rudster816

    Rudster816 Chieftain

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    Military should be calculated by the combined strength of all your units, with ranged units added as half of there ranged strength.
     
  14. ChickenSandwich

    ChickenSandwich Chieftain

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    Interesting, is that info or opinion? If it's info, where did you find it?

    Also, I looked through the civ 4 soldier scoring breakdown from a few posts up. If Civ 5 works the same way this explains a lot. In civ4, at least, population, tech level, wonders and military units all contributed to "soldiers". Now given that AI has crazy huge bonuses to tech and pop growth as well as production (on King+), of course it's going to dominate the soldiers category. In the early game at least.

    I tried tracking the Soldiers demographic last night. Conclusion: It moves in mysterious ways. 1: It's not updated immediately, so you can't buy a unit and record the change. 2: It increments when a military tech is completed and I think it may even increment while military units are being constructed. Don't quote me on that though. 3: The pointy stick number on the ranking list is not the same as or linearly realated to soldiers count. One example Me: Soldiers=11662 Pointy Stick Rating=34 ratio Sold./PSR = 343 vs Unknown Empire Soldiers=22000, PSR=128 Sold./PSR=172. So those two stats may measure different things. Does the AI look at soldiers or Pointy Stick rating?

    Lastly, I tested the soldier positioning mechanic last night, too. Germany was cycling scouts by my front lines so I put all my hardware where he could see it. He stood pat. I moved everything away from the border and he declared war two turns later. I didn't run a save load as control but this seemed pretty convincing.


    The AI can't figure out when it should attack or not either so I guess we're all in the dark on this one. And let's face it, combat rules in civ 5 and the AI sucks at it so wars aren't all bad.
     
  15. Polobo

    Polobo Emperor

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    Regarding the "building up too fast". One of my first games I was building warriors/scouts quickly and had already taken out one civ. As soon as I unlocked the "free great general" policy three of the other civs on the continent declared war on me. This was a while back so I don't recall all the specifics but the timing was memorable.
     
  16. MouseyPounds

    MouseyPounds Prince

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    Based upon my reading of the relevant LUA files, the "pointy stick" number uses the raw "Might" for each player but the "soldiers" number takes the square root of this and multiplies by 2000. In the case of the above example 2,000*sqrt(34) = 11,661.90 Soldiers, 2,000*sqrt(128) = 22,627.42 Soldiers, and 2,000*sqrt(121)=22,000 Soldiers; I assume the discrepancy with the AI number is from losses during their turn..

    As for how the "Might" itself is calculated, we can't say at this point but I would expect it to be similar to the Civ4 algorithm. Although I haven't looked too deeply into the Might numbers myself, I can give one test case. In a game where my Might was 2708 (93,979 Soliders) I upgraded a Catapult to Trebuchet and the next turn the Might was 2247 (94,805 Soldiers.) Since that was a net gain of 39 Might on a change of 2 base strength and 6 ranged strength I would say that it is certainly more complex than a sum of unit strength numbers.

    EDIT: I can also say from further testing that the health of units matters. A full-strength warrior is worth 17 Might but one at 6/10 HP is only worth 10.
     
  17. Surgeon

    Surgeon Warlord

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    I disagree that score is the only thing the AI uses to decide if its good to DOW. You need to whip your big pointy stick out and show everyone. Those riflemen need to be visible to the agressor befor ethey decide to attack.
     

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