How do people get sub T300 science victories?

Discussion in 'Civ5 - General Discussions' started by CivAddict2013, May 25, 2016.

  1. CivAddict2013

    CivAddict2013 Warlord

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    I've tried my hardest, but even when I put everything into my science; I end up getting the Science victory around turn 350 or 400. I usually go full tradition, full rationalism, emphasize growth and build most of the food wonders such as the Temple of Artemis. I also send food caravans.

    I play on Emperor difficulty. I'll be way ahead in tech of the AI; but nowhere near getting a sub T300 Science victory.

    I can usually get Education around T110 if I pick Babylon. But I can't get Scientific Theory anywhere around T160. I usually get Scientific Theory around T180 or T200.

    So what am I doing wrong? Do I just need better starting positions for my cities?

    Also can anyone link me to any videos showing someone getting a fast Science victory?
     
  2. poxpower

    poxpower Prince

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    Turn 200: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s8KEoxcib-4
    ( not a typical game though lol )
    Turn 228: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Roq3DYYG8FI

    his detailed guide: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=534745

    I can try to summarize:

    - Settle 3 cities, then make National College
    - open Tradition tree
    - Build caravans ASAP and use them only for food to capital
    - Get friendly with as many AIs as you can
    - research civil service then education. Build universities in capital and through loans from AI
    - build writer's guild soon in capital. pop writers for treatise and only 1 turn before end of golden ages
    - After education, get astronomy if your capital has mountain
    - build markets where you have time
    - build artist's guild in capital and gardens everywhere you can. use artists only for golden ages
    - If no mountain, go for Metal Casting, get all workshops
    - use first great scientist for academy, keep all others
    - finish tradition, then unlock right side of commerce
    - go printing press, attempt Leaning Tower ( hard on deity ). get great scientist
    - unlock rationalism
    - Go for public schools tech, make schools with loans if possible
    - research electricity and make sure you finish Oxford university at the same time you finish electricity
    - get Radio with your free tech from oxford
    - get "freedom" ideology" with +25% great people generation and Great people consume 50% food policies
    - At this point you should have unlocked commerce and got it down to the buildings discount
    - build Big Ben
    - Go for plastics tech
    - Build labs with money if possible.
    - Check if AIs have porcelain tower. Start/ finish it if you will finish the game before that city will make another scientist.
    - After labs, get chemistry and then fertilizer
    - Get penicilin for more trade routes
    - Now go for rocketry, then sattelites
    - start apollo in capital.
    - start popping great scientists
    - Once appolo is done, start hubble. If you have enough faith, get it with great engineer.
    - Get "buy spaceship parts with gold" in freedom.
    - Start to buy spaceship parts as they become available. Get loans from the AIs, on deity they should have thousands of gold. On immortal they might have less for you to work with.

    There you go.
    Of course the devil is in the details, really good players have finished under 200 turns on good maps lol that's pretty crazy.

    On immortal you will actually be slower because the AIs generate early workers slower and have less gold for you to take loans. However, it opens up different strategies like getting Temple of Artemis, Hanging Gardens and Petra, which the AI sucks at building. You can also basically guarantee you get Chicken Itza, Globe Theater, Taj Mahal, Leaning Tower and Eiffel Tower if you play right. When I play immortal games the AI can't build any wonder first, basically.

    Anyway watch Acken's videos, pretty good times.
     
  3. danaphanous

    danaphanous religious fanatic

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    Sub-300? Do you mean sub-200 victories? Those are the best SV times that exist. They require a perfect map with not only a great capital start but good expos and probably minimum a mountain/coast/river capital. You also need luck so that neighbors don't rush you and just let you tech peacefully after worker stealing, and enough early gold sources to buy one of your settlers so you only have to build 2. I would say most players would need rerolling as well since it's hard to play near-perfectly in one go. If you can't get sub-200 then I wouldn't be discouraged it requires pretty perfect maps and luck and so I don't know of any that are on camera, it'd be tedious to watch all that rerolling, reloading, and microing.

    If you actually mean sub-300 then yes, you should be able to pull that off on most random maps. T110 is not bad for universities, T180 is a bit slow for public schools, but still not game-breaking. Where I lose you you is how it then takes you 120 turns to go from industrial and ideologies to finishing? This is the quick part of the game. You just rush to research labs, buy them, run all the scientists slots and faith-buy scientists and save all many of the great scientists as you can till just before rocketry, and then bulb one a turn to finish the atomic/info in like 15 turns. Do you do that stuff? It makes a huge difference in time. The first time I went under Turn 300 for a science victory it was solely because I saved and bulbed 2 scientists at the end when my science rate was good, when I saw what a difference running the specialists and saving the scientists had I switched to always doing this. It shouldn't require perfect form to get under 300, so I suspect you are just missing a few details like running scientist specialists, saving scientists, or not getting to research labs quick enough.
     
  4. CivAddict2013

    CivAddict2013 Warlord

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    Thanks for the advice; I'll definitely check out that Turn 228 video.

    I usually do things in almost the exact order you listed. But one thing you listed that I don't usually try, is to use Great Writers. I might try that my next game. I'll also try to build caravans sooner and see if that helps.

    Another thing I tend to neglect is gardens. So I'll try to build more gardens in my next.

    I think I also make the mistake of building too many academies. I usually build around 3, but I'll try to build less of them next time.
     
  5. poxpower

    poxpower Prince

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    Buying science buildings with loans is really what does the difference in my opinion.
    I used to finish around turn 290-300 before I really started abusing loans from AIs and now probably any game I can finish turn 260ish.

    This probably doesn't work that well on emperor though, if I remember the AI is really terrible at generating gold and often in the first 100 turns they just sit there with like 4 gold per turn income. Could be hard to get gold to build settlers/ libraries in those conditions. Definitely could get hard to get thousands through loans for spaceship parts.
     
  6. garmeth

    garmeth Chieftain

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    The aspects that make the biggest difference to consistently have a pre 300 SV are

    • Stealing 2 workers before turn 40, although one can often steal 3 workers by turn 20. On Emperor, I know that this isn't possible, but stealing as many workers as quickly as you can is of the utmost importance.
    • Avoiding superfluous wars, Always know which AI are angry at you and may declare war. Try to pay the closest warmonger to attack them. Sometimes you can get a really cheap deal and get Shaka or Askia to declare war on somebody for 1 gpt / an embassy.
    • Four cities, you want to pump settlers early and make sure they have some means to construct a library quickly be it through chopping trees or through actual bonus resource tiles. A fast national college is essential. Make every game a test to see how early you can build the national college. Turn 80 is a good time with 4 cities although not achievable every game. Early wonders like the ToA, stonehenge, and the great library can often hurt you more than help especially if you're building these in place of settlers or the national college. I'm not sure when these wonders are built on emperor, but I would recommend not building them before your national college.
    • Rush buy every science building in your capitol except for the library. You should have enough gold to do this by trading excess luxury resources. A strong religion really helps with money because pagodas free up 8 happiness allowing for an entire lux of happiness buffer and tithe straight up buffs your GPT.
    • If you don't have a cultural CS ally or build the Oracle, you really want to go into the renaissance era ASAP so you don't have to waste a social policy on the commerce opener. Sometimes this means you will have to go acoustics after you finish education.
    • Only plant 1 great scientist. The greatest bottleneck in fast science victories are the cost of post plastics techs, you need to have ~10 great scientists saved to bulb the later techs. Even the strongest Korean empires can only reach ~1500 BPT which means the later techs still take around 10 turns each to research, this is unacceptable and can only be remedied with great scientist bulbing. Additionally, academies also prevent improvements and usually block you from +2 food which is not ideal.
    • Bulb all great writers and great artists, do not work the musician's guild unless you win the world's fair.
    • Propose and win the world's fair. Every time the first world congress happens, you need to propose and win the world's fair. You will get a ton of positive diplomacy because everyone wants the world's fair to take place, and winning the world's fair gives an unreal advantage. Winning can be done on every game on deity so on emperor it shouldn't even be a problem. Once you can win the world's fair every time through efficient play, save all great writers until ~10 turns after the culture bonus kicks in and them bulb them for masssive culture. My last game as the Shoshone I gained 4000 culture on one turn using this method. On Emperor, the AI's tech will be slow as hell so make sure you get printing press quickly sometime after education.
    • After scientific theory beeline for radio and pick freedom for the two free tenets. 1/2 food consumption from specialists and 25% great person generation are the prime picks on the first tier.

    No other cute techniques are needed. You do not need to sign RAs, you don't need to take out loans to get science buildings faster, you don't need an extreme spain opener, and you don't even need a religion although it makes the game way easier.

    edit: Also, I'm not an S tier player like Vadalaz / tommynt/ and numerous others, but I'm pretty sure there are a good number of starts that are borderline impossible to even get a pre 280 science victory. If you don't have any bonus resources and your only lux is a desert spice or you start in the middle of the jungle the game is going to be absolute hell. Sometimes those games can be salvaged with some other extraordinary luck like amazing land for your 2nd-4th cities or random natural wonders like Sri Pada, but in general if you get a terrible start where you capitol isn't on a hill and can't even work 3 good tiles at 3 pop you're going to have a hard time no matter how good you are. I would recommend rerolling until you get a mining lux start with a good hill and see if you can get pre 300 science victory that way first and then see if you can win quickly with bad starts.
     
  7. CivAddict2013

    CivAddict2013 Warlord

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    Hmm, I tried and one of the problems I run into, is I just get can't my cities to grow like in Acken's playthrough. Even with a granary, a water mill, jungles, aqueducts and farms, I'm still seeing low growth. I can get my capital to grow pretty well; but my other cities are either growing slowly or stagnant(Despite being next to jungles).

    I just played a game as the Maya. I had a jungle start, used caravans, got the Hanging Gardens and I'm still getting Scientific Theory by Turn 200. I also built the National College. I planted one Great Scientist.

    The problem seems to be growth. There's something about Acken's starting location, that allows him to grow his cities super quickly.

    Even with caravans and the Hanging Gardens, I'm just not getting the same fast growth as in those vids.
     
  8. Iamteehee

    Iamteehee I only play SV

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    Are you making an effort to settle your satellite cities next to rivers and other sources of fresh water? It provides a huge boost in growth once you get Civil Service.
     
  9. CivAddict2013

    CivAddict2013 Warlord

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    Yep and I'm still not getting to Scientific Theory until Turn 200.

    Perhaps I should try Babylon instead. The Maya Long Count thing seems to make Great Scientists come slower.
     
  10. danaphanous

    danaphanous religious fanatic

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    Try Korea if you haven't yet. They're easier to use for fast science in my opinion and have more versatility.
     
  11. Nick31

    Nick31 Prince

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    There a lot of threads through the years that talk about going Tall Science. I've started a couple, and certainly there are plenty of guides. I'm not sure what to add to them other than to reiterate some very key core concepts:

    1) Core-4 Tradition, with sometimes 3-city NC and sometimes 4-city depending on the start.
    2) Stealing workers, particularly from CS
    3) Internal Trade Routes at all times, especially to Capital. Occasionally you may send a caravan to a CS quest, but generally all food all the time.
    4) Plant first GS, and have 2nd GS ready to bulb into Industrialization (for Order) or Sci-Theory (if you're going to Oxford into Radio and go Freedom)
    5) Religion is a nice thing to have. On Immortal and below, I actually prioritize building Hagia Sophia after I complete NC. If my neighbor has great religion, I'll plant the prophet, but otherwise I'll take something since the AI generally leaves behind Tithe and some form of hammers or food.
    6) Saving all GWriters for post World's Fair victory, with GA for Golden Age, and some Cultural CS all lined up.
    7) Artillery Rush

    The last part doesn't have to even be rushed (you can go Research Labs first, particularly with a bulb/Oxford combo) and then swallow a juicy neighboring cities. But you want to finish the game with 7-9 cities. You can get your science up to 2000 if you know what you're doing, i.e. Order with skyscrapers and Big Ben and buying science buildings in your new cities and some other things.

    To relate this to the Civ VI discussions, Ed Beach is right that once you nail down fast science wins, its very hard to get yourself to play differently (i.e. sub-optimally). On Immortal, getting pre-275 Science becomes second nature if you hone your skills, and then it's a matter of whether you can get things to go smoothly for the pre-260. Things can be delayed if you play with Mods that make things harder (I only play with mods that enable an AI to move and shoot, and take Rationalism, for instance), but frankly, once you get better, any non-Diety game becomes a question of whether you want to play around a bit or go "optimal."

    Certainly, there are a bit of skillsets that come with hours and hours of time (city placement, AI bribing, CS quest hunting, wonder building or passing), but the above 7 things and reading the various tall science growth guides, will help. Just put your nose down into going Tall and you'll get there :). Even a "weak" civ like Assyria can go pre-275 Science once you just forego its Uniques. I haven't played a game below Immortal in years, but I guess on Emperor and below you can play around with earlier conquests, but on Immortal, barring certain factors, go high growth into Ideologies and just wait for Artillery. Most efficient swallowing up possible.

    Timing Hubble, or faith-buying GE, or buying parts if Freedom comes down to practice. Once you get to T230, and you've taken cities, and have your set-up, you can map out how to get GS, GE, and timing the victory. If you can time the World Congress, you can sometimes bulb into Satellites super early, propose ISS and then use that for extra powered GS, but often you finish the game so fast once you're set up that waiting to complete ISS doesn't speed you up.
     
  12. Nick31

    Nick31 Prince

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    I re-read your opening:

    As you're on Emperor and going food-positive with quick Education, I'd suggest you need to work on 1) Fast Ideologies, 2) World's Fair Maximizing, and 3) Swallowing up your juciest neighbors with artillery.

    Try that and push yourself into a nice large empire with 1700+ science at the end with which to bulb GS and finish all your Space techs in time to either buy or GE rush.
     
  13. garmeth

    garmeth Chieftain

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    Can you post pictures of your empire around turn 100? If you had only jungle around your first city then the map was bad. Was it a super dense jungle or only a few jungle tiles? When was national college complete and when did you build hanging gardens?
     
  14. CivAddict2013

    CivAddict2013 Warlord

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    I actually do most of that stuff.

    I still can't hit the benchmarks people are claiming. T110 Education seems only possible with Babylon.

    I rush settlers and get 3 cities, but can't get the national college until around T110.

    I'm thinking the whole "settle 3 cities and build the NC" strategy is too slow and doesn't even give you that much science.

    I've tried the "settle 3 cities and build NC" strategy and I have never gotten Education around T110.

    It may just be faster to build the NC and then settle later.
     
  15. poxpower

    poxpower Prince

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    NC turn 110 is very slow.
    Education turn 110 is kind of slow, but ok.

    Most games with a good start you can get education turn 100 if you play well, at least on Deity.

    In a typical deity game it's easy to get 3 city national college by turn 85. Really hinges on workers because they allow you to be flexible. They hook up luxuries so you don't suffer unhappiness, they hook up ressources for you to sell to the AI and they can make mines/chop forests to speed up buildings.
    Chopping a forest for a granary speeds it up by like 10 turns. That means that city grows 10 turns faster and starts its library 10 turns sooner, which spares you having to spend 400 gold and/or means the capital starts NC faster.

    You might also just be working food tiles and not enough production tiles, meaning you're making ultra slow granary/libraries and starting your NC very late.

    Could be a lot of things really.
     
  16. Sclb

    Sclb Emperor

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    You're probably not assigning citizens properly. You have to set manual on production focus and lock down key tiles. Should watch a video on how pros manage citizens.
     
  17. Mahasona

    Mahasona Prince

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    Are you buying the last library to save time?

    If you are short of money try getting a loan from an AI (cash for gold per turn) as suggested above.
     
  18. beetle

    beetle Deity GOTM Staff

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    Wait, I though SV was the one VC which is faster at higher difficulty levels?
    Because TR science and RAs that are worth a damn.
    If that is the case, then nothing wrong with T350 SV at Emperor.

    But personally, I find the game most enjoyable when I might loose, and am not much at motivated to finish games faster.
     
  19. Nick31

    Nick31 Prince

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    Where are you in terms of Ideologies in your games?

    http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=683682153

    Do you bulb into Industrialization, and then build/buy your 3 factories asap? Above is just one example of how big you capital can get in a high growth game, particularly if you're getting Hanging Gardens. Pop 26 and going into Industrialization at T152, get coal from a CS if possible (pay the 200 to insta-improve) or in your own lands, and get going.
     
  20. poxpower

    poxpower Prince

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    I don't know if it's faster on deity really.
    On one hand you get more loans, faster trades and faster workers, but on the other you get any wonder, any religion and the AI is crippled and can't attack you.
    You also get much more land to settle initially because the AIs only have 1 settler to start.

    So I dunno, might be a toss-up. On emperor the AI will have enough gold eventually for trades, unlike even lower difficulties where the AI has like... no gold ever. On settler it's not rare that they'll be at -2 gold per turn for the first 100 turns somehow lol.
     

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