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How do people get sub T300 science victories?

Discussion in 'Civ5 - General Discussions' started by CivAddict2013, May 25, 2016.

  1. phillipwyllie

    phillipwyllie Wannabe Deity

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    I'd wager they DOWed you because your diplomacy was lacking, this includes trading. Always make sure you trade your luxuries, even your last copy if you can spare it.
     
  2. MightySpice

    MightySpice Chieftain

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    It's not BNW.
    What diplomacy is there in the first 100 turns?
     
  3. poxpower

    poxpower Prince

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    We'd need to see your game to know if you're doing something wrong.

    Sometimes some AIs will definitely declare war out of nowhere, but it's rare.
     
  4. yung.carl.jung

    yung.carl.jung Hey Bird! I'm Morose & Lugubrious

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    With an attitude like yours you won't improve your play anytime soon. The AI is 100% predictable. Once you start to analyze the AI from a coding point of view and stop treating them like as if they are capable of decisions you can get your 3 or 4 city National College setup up in a decent time on any map with any civ. The AI are not actual people, they are peaces of code. Every decision is decided by parameters. When you know the parameters in and out you won't be surprised anymore. I'm not saying I do, but I will say that I don't even remember the last time an AI DOWed me and I did not see it coming.

    However in order for my post to have some substance here are some things you can do to make the AI less likely to DOW you:

    1. Preemptively bribe them to attack someone else
    2. Never give them your Embassy
    3. Send an early Trade Route. Often they will send one, too.
    4. Never forward settle aggresive AIs
    5. Trade all your strategics and luxuries away
    6. You can trade away your last copy of a luxury, too, as long as you get another unique for it. This way you will sometimes get wltk days or city state quests for luxuries you have in your territory. You also secure a future luxury deal and can substitute for gold as soon as you need more happiness.
    7. Often giving away a single horse or two or three gold per turn can give you a sizeable diplomacy boost, especially with "loyal" warmonger friends like Zulu, Hiawatha and Genghis.
    8. Denouncing a civ that your neighbours denounced can often be a good idea.
    9. When asked to go to war against a faraway civ you can just accept but never send units there. You will still get a diplomacy boost.
    10. Do not befriend an AI that your neighbours dislike. Always prefer your own neighbours as friends. If they DOW you it will count as backstabbing and they will be hated for it.

    This is obviously not all you can do, there is far more. Civ is an intricate game and even though it might seem to you like certain things are impossible; they're not.

    Even Deity players and modders don't know the game all-out. I still learn new things every day reading these forums and watching channels like FilthyRobot's.

    I bet if you post the map where you came to the conclusion it is "impossible" to get a 4 City National College setup by T90 someone will play it through and show you how.

    You just have to be willing to learn.
     
  5. johnny_rudeboy

    johnny_rudeboy Warlord

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    And if you do give them an embassy (they might have stuff you want and you want to have good relations with them), never ever give them open borders. They will just scout your land, want it even more and not be impressed with your army and DOW you.

    But I never ever give Shaka my embassy.
     
  6. danaphanous

    danaphanous religious fanatic

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    ^^^

    Naw man, clearly if you can't get a strategy down first game you try it the strategy sucks! ;) It has nothing to do with your own lack of experience!

    but all sarcasm aside, great post, I do all the same things, though I guess you forget to mention details like this if you've played a long time. You just kinda know the AI and sense when developments are happening. Countless times I've seen a war coming when I had crappy military and by the time it started I was ready. It doesn't take a lot to rebuff these early rushes. I prefer to get attacked and kick ass rather then bribe though, just more fun lol.

    I will say the MightySpice though: if you aren't at this point yet where you have a good feel for when you'll be attacked, by all means, build a few extra military early. There's nothing wrong with playing the game a little more safely. You can do that and still easily win on Deity. It's only really important to make these early benchmarks if you want to make a record science time. The AI usually finishes around T300 on average (T270 earliest) so you've got a lot of leeway to do what you want.
     
  7. Nick31

    Nick31 Prince

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    Dr. Carl with an excellent list. Mods and random personalities help to make an AI a bit more unpredictable, but his list is great keepsake. I will say that I often violate No. 4 and will forward settle aggressive guys because I want to play with good land :). That said, I won't do it on Diety (another reason I still play a lot of Immortal).

    A somewhat obvious trick is to always make enough scouts and farm them against Barbs to Double Vision. Eyes on your neighborhood makes the decision tree much easier.

    Still, the lesson of Carl's post is vital: Optimal play is a jigsaw puzzle, while breaking away from that exposes a player to different challenges. Some worthwhile and some tedious. But certainly that's the framework to analyze one's own game play. I play Modded Immortal precise because I want my box of options to be larger than on Diety where that box is smaller. Also, I'm not motivated to be as "good" a player as the best on here. But that's a key Consideration for a player looking to improve: if being an amazing player is your true goal, you need to learn your boxes. One thing this forum has in spades is elite players lifting the lid on how to do things.
     
  8. CivAddict2013

    CivAddict2013 Warlord

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    Well I played another game with Babylon and was able to get Education by Turn 110, with the help of the Great Library and National College.

    But after that the jump to Scientific Theory everything seems kind of slow. I usually don't get Scientific Theory until about Turn 180. By Turn 200 I have a Public School in every city, but I only have 300 Science per turn.

    I've tried manually managing my citizens, but still can only get around 18 population in my capital around Turn 200.

    I'm starting to think I might food wonders or a religion to get faster growth.
     
  9. Nick31

    Nick31 Prince

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    Haha, good luck. Reload those turn zero autosaves and keep practicing :).

    There are now a dozen really descriptive posts in this thread. Great Library isn't in there. Shoot for bulbing into Industrialization or Scientific Theory by T150. Keep at it.
     
  10. Browd

    Browd Dilettante Administrator

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    Frankly, turn 110 Education is an OK goal for "ordinary" civs, but your goal for Babylon should be Education by turn 95. And if you only have 18 pop in your capital and 300 beakers by turn 200, you are doing something very suboptimally.

    The thrust of your posts is "I've been doing everything everyone advises, but I still don't hit the commonly described benchmarks for population, beakers or tech progress." All I can say is that your initial assertion (that you are doing all that has been advised) must be wrong, because the advice everyone offers is solid.

    You state in your opening post that "I usually go full tradition, full rationalism, emphasize growth and build most of the food wonders such as the Temple of Artemis. I also send food caravans.", but I see no mention of when you buy your science buildings, when you get NC finished, and whether you work all science specialist slots from day 1. Do you do research agreements?
     
  11. yung.carl.jung

    yung.carl.jung Hey Bird! I'm Morose & Lugubrious

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    It is no wonder your benchmarks aren't doing good when you're still building wonders instead of Settlers..
     
  12. jayjackson

    jayjackson Warlord

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    You'll never "need" wonders or a religion to get faster growth. Especially not wonders. Sure, there are some religions that help growth, but you certainly don't need to rely upon a religion or a wonder to achieve the benchmarks here.

    The biggest thing is that if you MISS a benchmark, that you know WHY you missed it. And the answer will never be "because I didn't have <blank> Wonder" or "because I didn't have a religion."

    Don't build Great Library. The speed science play is the National College open. Building Great Library is probably one of the main reasons why your times are unacceptable in your eyes. There certainly aren't any guides here by the top players that advise building it. Those turns need to be getting out Granaries, Libraries, Settlers, Workers, Caravans -- NOT WONDERS.

    Try another game and DON'T build Great Library. You aren't looking to build a World Wonder for a LONG time if you want fast science, trust us.
     
  13. yung.carl.jung

    yung.carl.jung Hey Bird! I'm Morose & Lugubrious

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    Building WW early can work out, but only if they're actually good like Temple of Artemis or Hanging Gardens or Pyramids. It's just that in order to make the best use out of those Wonders you need to be extremely fast and confident in executing a good opening, it's definitely not for people just trying to get the hang of 4 city NC.
     
  14. CivAddict2013

    CivAddict2013 Warlord

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    I think it has something to do with the Deity difficulty too.

    Scientific Theory by T160 just seems impossible on Emperor. Even with the ToA+Petra, Babylon and every single food tile worked.
     
  15. RincewindOtti

    RincewindOtti Chieftain

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    Nope ;)
    In TSG131 emperor OCC with an admittedly ridiculous start, I managed ST at turn 138. Ribannah even managed t132.
    Like I said, that starting position was reeeeeeeeally strong but the gap to t160 is large and it was OCC.
     
  16. Chum

    Chum King

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    You won that game. I don't think you can take results of someone who never submits games as valid at all.
     
  17. poxpower

    poxpower Prince

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    It's definitely slower on Emperor because the fastest you can steal a worker is turn 20+. You can't just walk up to the nearest civ, steal a worker, improve a luxury and sell it for 240 to buy a settler like you usually can on Deity.

    So where on deity you'd do like scout,scout,shrine,settler, you now have to do like.. scout, shrine,worker, settler, settler.

    Or just scout, shrine, settler, settler.

    Either way your start is really slow and crap and you have to use the rest of the game to catch up to where you'd be if you just got free fast 2-3 workers like on Deity.
     
  18. RincewindOtti

    RincewindOtti Chieftain

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    Yes there are differences for sure - I was mainly referring to

    ...and pointing out that it is possible
     
  19. poxpower

    poxpower Prince

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    Yeah probably.

    I'm finding that you can expect a 10-15 turn delay for NC on emperor, but yeah you can get hanging gardens/ petra in your capital, which are insane. That's like +15 food in your capital from then on usually so I imagine it lets you catch up and get times that are competitive with Deity...

    Also playing on settler I notice the AI seems to start with some amount of gold. Maybe they get it from camps or ruins, but even with usually negative gold per turn, they seem to magically have 150-300 in the bank at the start of games. So if you get lucky you can probably DoW and sell a luxury which would basically almost catch you up to Deity.
    Just seems to be dependant on chance as to whether or not they will have that gold sometimes.
     
  20. CivAddict2013

    CivAddict2013 Warlord

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    I would need to see a video.

    I've noticed all the fast science victory videos are on Deity difficulty.

    Even if I get to Education by 110, going to Astronomy is a good 12 turns, building the observatory takes 10 turns. Getting through all the technologies takes a good 30-40 turns, even at 200-300 Science Per Turn.

    How can I get to Scientific Theory by T160?
     

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