1. We have added a Gift Upgrades feature that allows you to gift an account upgrade to another member, just in time for the holiday season. You can see the gift option when going to the Account Upgrades screen, or on any user profile screen.
    Dismiss Notice

How do you conquer cities in the Industrial Era?

Discussion in 'Civ6 - Strategy & Tips' started by Reman, May 26, 2020.

  1. Reman

    Reman Chieftain

    Joined:
    May 26, 2020
    Messages:
    3
    In my last few domination games, something I've noticed is how the balance between offense and defense changes over time.

    Up to the medieval era, offense seems relatively balanced with defense. Early rushes can capture towns fairly easily, but are stopped dead in their tracks by ancient walls. Battering rams counter walls, shifting the pendulum back towards offense, only for medieval walls to push the pendulum back towards defense. Then siege towers come online to reset things. Overall there's a good back-and-forth, with small tech leads causing big swings in power.

    In the modern era and later, offense is clearly superior. Balloons allow siege weapons to fire beyond the range of a city's defensive fire, letting siege units take potshots with impunity. Additionally, indirect fire means positioning becomes a lot more lenient, so it's pretty simple to set up 3-4 guns to obliterate a city's defenses in a single turn. Using a bunch of artillery with a single cav/tank can conquer entire continents, even without more advanced units like bombers which flatten cities even harder.

    My problem has been the gap between these two phases. In the Renaissance era and especially the Industrial era, it seems like defense is greatly superior to offense for the following reasons:
    • No offensive support unit: It feels like there's a unit missing from the game here. Early on there's the ram and siege engine, and later on there's the balloon, but there's really nothing contemporary to counter Renaissance walls. Sanitation brings medics, but these aren't anywhere close to being a hard counter like the other support units are. Ranged attacks from cities+garrison can overwhelm their healing effect rather easily.
    • Early siege units are garbage: Siege units ought to have modifiers that make them resistant to ranged attacks from cities/garrisons so that you'd need field units to take them down. Unfortunately, the game isn't balanced this way. Siege units melt to city attacks just as easily as other units do, and the AI knows to prioritize them. Combine how flimsy they are with their low mobility (can't move+attack in same turn without promotion) means siege units are almost dead by the time they can fire. Bombards also have low attack in general, and have no upgrade in the Industrial era whereas city defenses continually improve.
    • Renaissance walls are tough: Even with a modern contemporary army, Renaissance walls are tough to crack. A single attack from a bombard (even if it has a few promotions) can often do less than 1/10 of the wall's total HP.
    • Peak traffic jam: Corps and Armies are just starting to be introduced around this time. If you want to preserve XP you'll need to train new units from your home cities, which will need to travel to wherever your army is campaigning. In the meantime you'll be fighting with and against single units, which really clogs the front and makes offensives difficult. Furthermore, a lack of indirect fire on artillery means Bombards often need to be directly next to cities to actually attack them, making positioning even more difficult. Things become a total mess when you need to retreat a unit to save it, especially if there are rivers
    • Encampments are everywhere: The AI really likes to prioritize encampments for some reason, and they're at their worst around this time. Sometimes you can ignore them if they're behind the city you're attacking. If they're oblique to your attack vector then you can sort of ignore them, but they make positioning even more difficult, especially for siege units. If they're directly in front of where you need to attack then they basically act as a second siege.
    Am I doing something wrong here? Is there some trick that makes offense during this time period much more viable?
     
    wesplaysciv, Myomoto and snakeboy like this.
  2. schondette

    schondette Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jun 10, 2018
    Messages:
    51
    Gender:
    Male
    The middle eras is definatley the worse part for attacking. But I think the issue is more along the lines of game speed. Even on normal speed and king difficulty. The ai is already 5000 techs ahead of the era for which you want to push. By time you produce a Bombard they have ATs running around. So civs like Great Britain and Ottomans are uselss for role-playing.
     
  3. CrabHelmet

    CrabHelmet King

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2017
    Messages:
    667
    I agree and am interested to see how people respond. I also find the two major problems are a) Renaissance walls, which none of the contemporary siege units seem good enough to handle, and b) this is the point where there's just too many army units floating around and moving them all around and over each other and rivers and terrain and everything is a nightmare.

    The upside is the 'mid-game' is over really quickly. The game seems to take a while to get to Medieval, then before you know it you're in Future.
     
  4. Reman

    Reman Chieftain

    Joined:
    May 26, 2020
    Messages:
    3
    I wish this were the case. In my games I've found the opposite. Walls are quite easy to rush, heck, you can go from the start of the game to Renaissance walls in just 8 techs if you beelined to it. The AI will never do this and the player really shouldn't, but the example serves to show how relatively easy the requirements for it are.

    Beelining Flight for balloons is much more involved. You have to research 7 of the 9 techs in the Renaissance era to unlock Industrialization and Scientific Theory, which are the prereqs for Flight. Some of the tech boosts along the way are kind of niche too, requiring weird civics and an Industrial age wonder. Also, doing this beeline requires giving up on the bottom branch of techs, which is where nearly all the unit upgrades are. Neither Ballistics nor Military Science are needed to get to Flight, but skipping them forgoes upgrades to both cav types and ranged units, which is pretty punishing.
     
    snakeboy likes this.
  5. Myomoto

    Myomoto Prince

    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2013
    Messages:
    301
    I definitely feel a trebuchet unit is missing between the catapult and bombard. Siege units should also have indirect fire and 3 tile range by default, otherwise, why do they need the move and shoot penalty? They seem just objectively worse at taking down cities than archers/crossbows.
     
  6. Pistol90

    Pistol90 Warlord

    Joined:
    Oct 14, 2017
    Messages:
    261
    Gender:
    Male
    You can do it maybe, AI cant ... only way for me is to use mod to disable walls from game. Without walls there is chance for both AI and player.
     
  7. The Highwayman

    The Highwayman Prince

    Joined:
    Jul 21, 2016
    Messages:
    478
    Location:
    Dallas, TX
    With renaissance walls, bombards must be used preferably in corps with a GG so they can swarm the city and triple or quad shot it before retaliation. If the terrain is a hindrance, the balloon is the best option, proving your point as it's a delay to modern. Flight can be had relatively quickly if you economized appropriately though. Then it becomes laughably easily since vision can no longer be blocked and you can pelt the city from a safe distance. It would be nice to have a support unit to complement melee to take down renaissance walls. The best solution I've come up with is to just tech fast so I have riflemen/bombards/cavalry before the AI can either build the renaissance walls or have any kind of units that are a threat.

    I've stayed back and killed the encampment outright if in the way. Takes a few turns but eliminating it has so many benefits since I cannot be shot by it, they can't spawn units out of it, and it doesn't impose ZOC. Then swarm in and repeat for the city. Encampments can be tough though, as I've seen them placed in numerous spots surrounding a city I'm attacking.
     
  8. Prester John 2

    Prester John 2 Chieftain

    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2005
    Messages:
    88
    Location:
    Germany
    Well, you shouldn't build the first bombards from scratch, instead have two cats reserved and waiting to be upgraded.
    Secondly, I almost never build units after medieval times, instead I use the administration district building to faith buy them. This can be done in newly conquered cities.
    If I want to conquer I look out for Akkad city state - it solves many problems.
     
  9. GunsGermsandSteel

    GunsGermsandSteel Warlord

    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2020
    Messages:
    137
    Gender:
    Male
    I would just like to weigh in on this. I'll attack aggressively in ancient and classical then start slowing down in early medieval and won't make further attacks until I mass artillery in the modern era. Renaissance/industrial sieges are is just a death factory for previously experienced units. Frankly bombards should do much more damage to walls. And take less damage from city attacks.

    It's certainly something that needs to be looked into.
     
  10. yung.carl.jung

    yung.carl.jung Hey Bird! I'm Morose & Lugubrious

    Joined:
    Apr 12, 2015
    Messages:
    4,808
    Location:
    The Twilight Zone
    bombard corps with a support unit (balloon, later drone) can shoot cities while not being in range to be shot. all you need is a sentry unit giving you vision of the city. it makes conquering cities trivial, but it may still take forever.

    thanks for weighing in Mr. Diamond, did not know you like to take to these forums! :D

    maybe the above advice will help you with conquering? it essentially makes bombards invincible.

    also, encampments are absolutely ridic and have way too much defense, which might be a bug. seriously, the AI needs ways other than overpowered city walls / encampments / unit strength buff to defend themselves, it's just more artificial difficulty like production bonuses.

    it simply feels wrong that an AI warrior is inherently better than my warrior.
     
  11. Bibor

    Bibor Doomsday Machine

    Joined:
    Jun 6, 2004
    Messages:
    2,890
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Zagreb, Croatia
    @Reman For renaissance pushes, flight + 3-4 bombards are the only reasonable solution. Usually around this time I get a great scientist to push me towards industrialization, so that helps.

    The thing is, with baloons you dont really need the bottom of the tech tree for a while. Idustrial cav and field cannons are nice, but neither take cities. And... you’ll get to these techs anyway. Coal and aluminum (on this tech path) also a nice thing to find early, especially if youre planning to follow up with bombers.
     
  12. PenngwynXVII

    PenngwynXVII Chieftain

    Joined:
    Nov 7, 2016
    Messages:
    17
    I don't even build siege weapons anymore.

    If going domination, I will beeline all the way to advanced flight.

    My armies of Musket corps and Bombers have conquered many a map.
     
  13. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

    Joined:
    Apr 11, 2011
    Messages:
    11,116
    You need a GG then they can move and fire and also get +5 for doing so. Getting one promoted on the right side of the promotion tree gives another +5... so +10 you should be expecting. Use the forbidden palace as an option here.
    Well they sort of do, as long as you build up culture. You get them to corps and armies.
    A level 2 bombard corps is shooting at a strength of 75 and the cities you are facing are typically 65-71. Once you get to flight you can shoot without reprisal, before that for gods sake keep 1-2 swords with ranged defence promotion. The AI city will target them instead of your bombards.

    This as a quite valid an OP approach, it just takes time and an early aggressive turtle approach does surprisingly well and keep you entertained.

    if you are going to be a Dominatrix, do it in style. Get a GG which is not an easy thing unless either you use Gorgo or encampment projects or get lucky playing a game with few aggressive civs. On deity the early rushes are not guaranteed but a dark age GG does give you +10. (5 for the general and 5 for the card). The middle traditional musket attack is the soundest with bombards And towers. Or you can just max out science, taking advantage of any early civ failings on the way to bombers. Knights can still do well early but as soon as walls are there, you are not. Even Xbow rushes work if the terrain is right and you are happy to lose 1.
     
    cylenalag and PenngwynXVII like this.
  14. PenngwynXVII

    PenngwynXVII Chieftain

    Joined:
    Nov 7, 2016
    Messages:
    17
    Should be on t-shirts.
     
    Fluphen Azine likes this.
  15. Bibor

    Bibor Doomsday Machine

    Joined:
    Jun 6, 2004
    Messages:
    2,890
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Zagreb, Croatia
    From my experience, it goes something like this:

    1. While researching flight
    Create an field army consisting of:
    - 3 Bombard corps
    - 1 field cannon corps
    - 1 musket corps
    - 1 cav corps (heavy or light)
    - Double this if you have time and/or need

    Let every field army be 6 units. Shouldn't be too crowded. I noticed I tend to go too low on bombards and too heavy on support units that sit idle while bombards peter away the defenses.
    The bottleneck in my games seems to be "not enough bombards" as I tend not to build catapults at all. And building 6-12 bombards takes longer than I'd like.

    2. After reseraching flight
    - add 2 baloons per field army
    - add another bombard corps & cav corps per field army and/or replenish losses as needed
    - Build 2-3 aerodromes
    - if enemies are far away, pre-plan airstrips (engineer + defensive unit needed) so your bombers can actually do their job. Small islands are ideal.

    3. Before Advanced Flight
    - Build 2-3 mobile (cav/tank) corps.

    4. After advanced flight
    - crank out them bombers and let the Aluminum games begin!
    - research other unit techs as needed, I usually beeline for Modern Armor.
     
    Last edited: May 31, 2020
    yung.carl.jung likes this.
  16. knighterrant81

    knighterrant81 Warlord

    Joined:
    Aug 9, 2011
    Messages:
    268
    I'm not sure which reason should cause me to be more scared.

    1) There are people using Pulitzer-prize wining book titles as user names.

    2) I instantly knew exactly what this quote was referencing, and I'm sure plenty of other people in this thread did too (like Yung).

    3) I have the hardcover version sitting on my shelf.
     
    yung.carl.jung likes this.
  17. Casualty of war

    Casualty of war Warlord

    Joined:
    Feb 20, 2018
    Messages:
    290
    I hate siege units because of how fragile they are. It so often feels like a pile of Hammers made out of kindling. I prefer to have a stalking horse that draws all the fire while my melee units kick down the walls. Sure, you can use a GG to get that extra point of movement to slip into range then shoot down the walls, but you have to spend a ton of effort getting that GG because you are fighting one or more AI for them.

    If you've been going hard and keeping your troops alive, you should have Level 3-5 troops at or exceeding the tech of your targets. Kill most of the enemy's troops in the open field then move in close with enough to take the city in 2-3 Turns. Approach from the side that the Encampment isn't on. Like Victoria mentioned, a Swordsman with turtle defense can almost just sit there and heal/pillage fast enough to soak the city damage.

    Maybe I'm missing out but I've never built a Balloon or a Drone. Before the patches, I was all about Tanks with Battering Rams.
     
  18. Bibor

    Bibor Doomsday Machine

    Joined:
    Jun 6, 2004
    Messages:
    2,890
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Zagreb, Croatia
    @Casualty of war What you suggest is what I do in all eras but past industrial.

    The reason why I don't like the infantry + siege tower combo is because I might not have oil, whearas for niter I have quite a long time to acquire it, and from what I've seen niter is more likely to spawn in locations you already have cities in anyway.

    I conquer oil with niter, and aluminum with oil, if that makes any sense.
     
  19. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

    Joined:
    Apr 11, 2011
    Messages:
    11,116
    Before that cav nerf patch I was all about knights with rams. Now I am often about knights without rams...there always seems to be a civ in reach without walls by the time you get knights. But I combine arms, I find it just make you far more flexible. Seeing screenshots of people building masses of one type makes me smile though.
    But yes, industrial era? Well swapping my armour for a breastplate and a plumed helmet certainly helps, then grouping them into armies can even be enough to take walls. An 86 strength horse attack is not bad, certainly helps the infantry.
     
    Last edited: Jun 1, 2020
  20. Casualty of war

    Casualty of war Warlord

    Joined:
    Feb 20, 2018
    Messages:
    290
    I just wish there was a decent light cavalry option between Horsemen and Cavalry. Coursers are made of tissue paper.
     

Share This Page