How do you do early war? (Immortal)

DouLou

Chieftain
Joined
Jul 30, 2007
Messages
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So i just did a successful science victory on immortal where i was in a good starting spot that allowed me to expand free of war, but am unsure how to proceed in games where a nearby civ or two take up too much land for pure peace to be an option.

My main questions are -

1. Is early archer rush viable?
2. How much should i expand before war?
3. When is the first good timing push to war and destroy a civ?
4. What should i be focusiny on building early on (encampments?)

Ive did a couple of dom victories on king but they were just abusing gilgamesh and tomyris. Im thinking more along the lines of playing rome or germany, aiming to survive an early cramped position through taking a civ, then going peaceful.
 
1. Yes, a warrior/archer rush can still be viable. However, the AI builds archers of their own now in this version and that makes things a littler tougher. I like having 3 melee units to keep the city from healing and soak up some retaliation. Try and get there before walls; if not, upgrade to swordsman and get a battering ram to accompany your archers. Park your units on farms if available to insta heal between assaults.
2. If other civ are close, I'll usually build 1 settler to have a 2 city base before attacking. If I steal a settler or two early, this may not be a priority though.
3. The earlier the better. Get to the first Civ before they have walls or too many classical units, like horsemen. That's the first push. The second timing push may have to wait until Knights, just prepare accordingly (build Heavy Chariots to upgrade, have access to Iron, save up some gold).
4. I like getting a builder early, somewhere between my slingers. This improves the city tiles and gets some inspirations/eurekas. The warriors, archers, any applicable UUs after that using the Agoge policy card. If you're using Rome, Legions w/ Oligarchy will shred your neighbors.

If you have Horse resources, and a horse rush makes sense given the terrain, you can wait for that and still be fine. I'd still build a battering ram just in case walls go up. It will be useful all game long. I find early Encampments are great for Macedon, but unnecessary for other Civs. With Alex, the Encampment/Basilikoi Paides is like a Campus, with bonus science being added for every Hetairoi built. The great general points generate quickly, boosting their Horse rush significantly in the Classical era.

After this, you can go peaceful and choose your victory path. I aim to have around 10 cities by turn 100, and expand to about 15-20 from there. With this type of start, I try to win by turn 250 on Immortal or Deity (Standard speed, large map, 7 AI Civs).
 
Thanks alot that helps. I'll reload one of my saved games where i got destroyed by 3 civs at t100 and replay it with your advice in mind.

My issue that game was that i went peaceful but all my settlers angered my neighbours and since i only had 6 archers defending 6 cities i couldnt hold off 3 dow.

On a side note... i managed a t257 science victory with just 9 cities last game. Do you think more cities has a huge impact on how fast you win?
 
On a side note... i managed a t257 science victory with just 9 cities last game. Do you think more cities has a huge impact on how fast you win?

Not so much for science (I think). In the end you need to build stuff, not research stuff, and you only need 3 good production cities for that (you'll probably be building them in 1 or 2 anyway).

For culture victory more cities means more museums, resorts, etc, so probably more important.
 
Thanks alot that helps. I'll reload one of my saved games where i got destroyed by 3 civs at t100 and replay it with your advice in mind.

My issue that game was that i went peaceful but all my settlers angered my neighbours and since i only had 6 archers defending 6 cities i couldnt hold off 3 dow.

On a side note... i managed a t257 science victory with just 9 cities last game. Do you think more cities has a huge impact on how fast you win?

You're welcome. One thing to remember is to play the map. Sometimes a particular strategy simply isn't viable because of your surroundings.

Being DoW'd by three Civs on high difficulty can be tough if they actually attack you. If you're dead center of the map, good luck. If the terrain allows for it, such as mountains and/or water forming choke points, one can skimp on defenses in the middle and back of the empire and put all of the defenses at the front line. You just have to know where to enemy is coming from.

More cities is better provided they are at least decent cities. If bad cities are milking your amenities, then no. More cities equal more pop = more science and culture. More districts mean more trade routes, more resources, more of everything. It's a more flexible empire in my opinion. Kongo can obviously go taller than other Civs, but going tall and wide is one of their strengths.
 
One thing that helps particularly if you are super close to another civ is wait for them to come attack you. They will throw all their units at you and you can pick them off fairly easily and just steamroll a couple cities while they try and rebuild an army.
 
One thing that helps particularly if you are super close to another civ is wait for them to come attack you. They will throw all their units at you and you can pick them off fairly easily and just steamroll a couple cities while they try and rebuild an army.
This passive aggressive method pays great dividends because the AI just cannot rebuild fast enough. An early archer rush can really hit trouble with their archers. It's a question of wether you got a soft civ to start (a civ with a secondary agenda like technophile or culture. It's a nice advantage France has.
 
I don't really lose deity/domination games anymore so I guess I'm qualified to comment here...
(comments are within the quoted text below)

1. Is early archer rush viable? >>> It sure is. But you need to remember to have enough melee troops with the archers to keep them alive. And, the fastest way to take cities in the early game is warriors + battering ram + archers killing the city's actual health bar once the walls are down (warriors with a ram will take walls down REALLY quickly).


2. How much should i expand before war? >>> Maximum one city if you have to build the settler. Often I don't build settlers at all until I get to techs that reveal later game necessery strategic resources. If I do build a settler, I do it only after my troops are already marching towards their first conquering campaign. If you can steal settlers early on, I mean the initial settlers the AI has at the start, then you can expand freely. But unless you get some huge production bonuses somewhere, focusing on building settlers before military, is in 95% of cases not helpful in a domination game.

In the very beginning it's useful to make war just so you can kill enemy's units and thus weaken him even if you can't yet take his cities. This serves a triple purpose: you weaken the enemy, you gain XP for your troops AND you get to make that civ pay you money for peace.


3. When is the first good timing push to war and destroy a civ? >>> As early as you can. And the same holds true for the entire playthrough. The earlier the time, the weaker they will be and the more you can have choice on how to develope their cities ( so you don't end up with dozens of cities that are district capped so none of them can build industrial zones). But there is a difference between pushing for war and destroying a civ. Typically a civ with one city left is a good thing because then they can pay you money for survival. And they can build wonders and districts faster than you can - only destroy a civ when it's beneficial. That means if the last city is really juicy or if there just isn't any possible benefit you can get from the last city surviving. Usually just keeping them perma-paying peace deal GPT is better than them being 100% dead - and you even get less warmongering penalties like this - which actually does matter even in domination games until you get to industrial era, at which point you can just give everyone the finger.


4. What should i be focusiny on building early on (encampments?) >>> 1. Units 2. Monument 3. Builder 4. Battering ram. 5. Granary or campus depending on city terrain. Build a settler in between if you have a very very good expansion spot available - otherwise just take cities from the enemy.

If you build an encampment to train your first army, you're too late to benefit from the early wars that give you the biggest boost. Typically you should build encampments ready for some new, later era units that you cannot upgrade your current units into. So when you have to build those new units, your encampent will make their building and training faster. As far as districts go, I'd say do a campus first, then a theater district, only then an encampent. Exception: if you are in real danger of getting into an early two-front war, then do use the opportunity of building an encampment along with ancient walls so your capital can defend itself without need of your army which is conquering another civ while the other neighbor is having a go at you.
 
You can hold off a bit which should get you Oligarchy and Military tradition so your attack and defence is better. (Naturally anyone with Oligarchy will bet tougher)

Build say 4 archers to survive with then

If you have iron get 4 chariots or more (h Alf price) and rush to knights with a battering ram and you should be just fine as long

2 horses and light cavalry will do the trick earlier

Neither horses or iron? Push your science for niter.

You do need to kill barb camps and expand to increase your chances of getting something.
Archer rush is riskier but better rewards and you should know when it's a lost cause to turtle.
 
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