How do you get past the bad habit of save scumming and excessive modding? I mean... mentally.

[yanraabe]

I know. "Just don't do it!" is the obvious answer. I usually start a new game with this golden rule in place, only to slowly but steadily drift away from that mindset. I KNOW that I'm "searching" for an excuse when I tell myself that, for example, "I missed the completion of this building/wonder/unit in this city by 1 shield only because I didn't spend enough time doing the math. So in order to continue playing faster, it's ok to rectify this kind of mistake."
I hate that I'm doing it, and I still can't stop myself. The worst part: Since I'm aware I hate what I keep on doing, I end up not enjoying playing the game, and so I don't play at all. I need help. At least some advice. Anyone gone through a successful "detox" and can let me know about the light at the end of the tunnel? I'm struggling.

I started playing Civ1 (yes, I'm that old!) and never stopped loving the game. Back then, saving and reloading other than when I stop playing for the day (... night) wasn't even a thought. And oh boy, do I miss those days of ignorant bliss.

Same thing goes for having too many great mods that allow me to come closer and closer to a "perfect" game setup, to the point where I don't enjoy a regular game start and setup:
After playing with Fantastical Map Script set on "many rivers, very wet, abundant resources, etc.", Terra Mirabilis and several modded City States for a long time, when I deactivate all those mods to play a "normal" game, I feel like I'm literally walking through the desert and there just is nowhere "acceptable" to settle.
Same question: any advice for how to get past this?
I used to LOVE Civ and I hate the state I'm in right now.
Any answer would be much appreciated.
Thanks.

 

[Civinator]

If understanding this correctly, a short answer for problem1 could be: If there is nothing to reload this problem is not existing any longer. So no own save files and reducing autosaves to the absolute minimum could be a solution.

For problem 2 may be a good idea could be, to play a game the way the player has the most fun. Why should a player who has fun while playing some mods of a game, return to the regular game, knowing that he/she has no fun with it any longer ?

So I would play only the game with these mods and not in a way knowing I have no fun with it any longer if there is no serious reason for playing such a regular game (per example a competition or children who are too young to understand the mods, may be because these mods are only in a language that the younger ones are not understanding yet).

 

[Zegangani]

I used to reload saves a lot, but once I learned how to play the Game and how AI plays it, I didn't want to do it, because it's just another advantage under the sleeve of the Player that the AI hasn't, which is already handicapped and only a competition in early game and on higher Difficulties with the bonuses, sometimes.

So I look at it as if it was a way to just make the Game more easy to play, hence making it uninteresting and boring. And accepting and playing along the mistakes made also kinda adds a little more challenge to the Game, which is a good side effect IMO.

Though, I have to admit I always leave the Cheat Panel Mod on, but only using it for the nerve wraking Pathfinding of Units. So I only use it when a Unit goes to a random tile rather than the tile I ordered it to move to. Now I'm wondering, does the AI also suffer from this? I mean, oftentimes their Units just head West just to turn back East some turns later, so is it because of the Pathfinding Issue or because AI is just terrible at decision making and Unit management?

re, Mods: I think it's a matter of Time spent with unmodded Civ and the Nitpicks you have about it. If you have 100s or even 1000s of Hours spent in unmodded Civ, then it kinda gets repetitive and uninteresting, so using Mods to enrich and change the Gameplay is something natural IMO. I myself used to play Civ VI a lot before using Mods, and I also disabled Mods back then when I brought RaF+GS Expansions, but now I can't enjoy the Game without Mods. It just gets me frustrated everytime I have to use the UI for example.

If you haven't played NFP yet, then you can have some fun Time without Mods (if you like those Modes), especially with Secret Societies on, though it isn't a Game changing Expansion like RaF and GS.

 

[yanraabe]

Thank you both for the repies! I'll def look into the "not having saves to fall back on" option.
About the mods: I agree with you wholeheartedly. Is it just me, or did CIV change the general settings with each patch/expansion according to what they wanted us to focus on? What I mean: When a desert-loving new civ got introduced for example, like Nubia or Mali, I feel like the average amount of desert you'd find in a game while keeping the same basic settings would increase a lot.
As I said, I've gotten spoiled with the Fantastical Map Script, basically turning most of the planet into a paradise to settle. But is it just me, or did the amount of rivers reduce dramatically in the last year or 2? Even with the settings as "positive" as possible, I usually find the map I spawn in without using a mod just... depressingly bland.

 

[Catalytic]

My solution is to simply play it on a slow computer, like my laptop. How does that work? Loading games takes forever, so the last thing you want to do is waste a lot of time reloading for something small. I end up usually just playing through whatever it was and it works out alright. I don't like to just give up the option. For things like key wonders where I'm sitting on GEs who can instantly build them or losing a city I might have been able to defend, I don't like to lose those, so I keep the saves every 2 turns, but then it's big enough to warrant me taking the time to reload and replay the turns leading up. Sometimes, even with the reloading, I still can't change my fate, and that's ok. It's part of the game. If the AI can't pressure you, are you really having fun? Or just boredly pressing the Next Turn button?

 

[PiR]

I know. "Just don't do it!" is the obvious answer. I usually start a new game with this golden rule in place, only to slowly but steadily drift away from that mindset. I KNOW that I'm "searching" for an excuse when I tell myself that, for example, "I missed the completion of this building/wonder/unit in this city by 1 shield only because I didn't spend enough time doing the math. So in order to continue playing faster, it's ok to rectify this kind of mistake."
I hate that I'm doing it, and I still can't stop myself. The worst part: Since I'm aware I hate what I keep on doing, I end up not enjoying playing the game, and so I don't play at all. I need help. At least some advice. Anyone gone through a successful "detox" and can let me know about the light at the end of the tunnel? I'm struggling.

Play a game with ZERO EXCEPTION. NO RELOAD AT ALL.
If you're about to loose, loose or quit. Leave with the unsatisfaction that you could have won by reloading. Only allow yourself, once you've completely given up, to replay from turn 0.
Then wonder: did you enjoy the game more with no reload? Or is it actually part of your ritual that makes it a game?

 

[yanraabe]

Or is it actually part of your ritual that makes it a game?

Yes, "the Game", for me, has drifted from "just playing Civ and seeing what happens next" to "chasing perfection" in what has become completely OCD. I end up "going through the motion of reloading" without even thinking it would be an option not to. If I don't, it feels "wrong" and I feel "icky". It takes a long time, isn't fun, and I get recurring flashes of thinking "what are you doing? how pathetic"
One consequence of this is that I've stopped playing with any goody huts. Ever. Because entering a goody hut and, for example, discovering the eureka for irrigation the turn before I was going to build my first farm and get it myself, would just lead to so much time spent reloading... "if I move this warrior first, then it becomes a free builder". And if it's "better, but still not great", I'd debate again between wasting more time and feeling the disappointment. It's tragic.
Ergo, no goody huts eliminates a big source of "potential imperfection".
Maybe I need to go cold turkey for a really long time, until I "forgot" how it feels to have everything "be perfect" (by cheating), and start fresh then...
Gosh! Where's the "get a lobotomy" option when you really need it!!
Sorry for the basket case, people!

 

[PiR]

I've been there and you know what?

Try Old World.

There is an undo button.

 

[topsecret]

While I have never been a save scummer, I do sometimes get into "must play perfect" mode and quit games, especially with 6.

My answer has been to play Civ 4 (or you could play 5) with some sort of mod that changes a lot. It means I have to learn new things and have new goals, but it gets me out of the "meta perfect" play and into enjoying the game. Usually that knocks me back into it.

Example mods include Legends of Revolution and RFC: DoC for 4.

Not sure on 5 but someone around here probably knows some good ones.

 

[Victoria]

only to slowly but steadily drift away from that mindset.

yh, For me the secret was play fast and do not give a x about turns.
I often play with a setting of one every 10 because once you start playing fast you really cannot be bothered.
I also have my load files on SATA (log files on SSD) and that makes the load time slower, start up a game and grab a coffee.

There is an undo button.

ugh

 

[Mahi]

I mostly blame the policy cards system for save/load abuse because I straight up forgot to put the card in I intended.
That and impatient scouting, where I move 2 fields instead of one of the time. The latter I blame myself.
I don't feel too guildy about it but I get what you mean. The more you end up loading autosaves in a game, the less enjoyable the victory will be.
One quick way to overcome this is by turning autosaves off or at least reduce it to only autosaves every 10 turns or something like that.

 

[Krajzen]

From my own experience, modding is a trap that can ruin your enjoyment of any video game once you fall too deep in the perfectionist thinking. There is always some miniscule stuff to increase or improve in any video game, especially complex one, and there are no criterias of finish line.

Once you start modding for the sake of modding itself, forever, not to resolve some clear subjective issues with the game or holes in content, you stop looking at the game as an adventure, and start looking at it at least partially as a cold mechanical construction that can be always made higher and grander. But the more mods you download, the more time and pain it brings to make all those mods compatible with each other. When combined with the general "adventure -> mechanics" outlook and the nature of diminishing returns effect the more mods you add to the (already large) game, I have ended in a position when I have spent more time and frustration making all this work, than I spend time and have fun with the final result. It's like making a ***** of a cake, and you struggle with adding more and more decorations and sugar to it (to resolve Every Imperfection),
only to realize it was not worth it and the cake felt better in its simple form.

Similar thing can be said about over the top optimization of a game. I gave much more fun accepting the flow of games rather than mechanically optimizing everything, because the former is adventure, while the latter is work. Adventures can't flow without the risk, uncertainty and strong emotions, it is work which doesn't tolerate failures.

By now I have largerly limited my modding and saving, trying to accept failure more.

I slightly suspect that those symptoms are especially threatening
players who are not exactly satisfied
with their everyday real life activities...

 

[yanraabe]

Thank you ALL for your replies. Krajzen, you've worded the cunundrum beautifully.
I think I'll hop on Civ4 for a while and wait before playing Civ6 again until the muscle memory of those cold mechanical constructions isn't as strong anymore, and I'm able to enjoy playing the game without balance altering mods again.

Civ has always been a welcome break from
real life worries for me, but don't worry, I'm ok...

 

[Scrum Lord]

Is it just me, or did CIV change the general settings with each patch/expansion according to what they wanted us to focus on? What I mean: When a desert-loving new civ got introduced for example, like Nubia or Mali, I feel like the average amount of desert you'd find in a game while keeping the same basic settings would increase a lot.

Desert levels haven't changed but GS moved floodplains from desert onto plains and grassland, resulting in less-fertile desert regions.

But is it just me, or did the amount of rivers reduce dramatically in the last year or 2? Even with the settings as "positive" as possible, I usually find the map I spawn in without using a mod just... depressingly bland.

Nope, the base game's rivers have always been terrible, especially on Inland Sea and on maps that have thick continents.
EDIT: I just remembered that GS added extra mountains along with vocanoes. The base game's rivers try to flow away from mountains and into salt water, so you probably have more areas in the map that rivers can't/won't reach.

My advice, as someone who has struggled with save scumming previous iterations of civ:

• If you make a mistake, then you now have two possible games that you can play: 1) reloaded game where you pretend that the mistake never happened; 2) continued game where you confront your mistake for a chance at redemption. Sometimes a game that you fix can be more rewarding than a game that was artificially perfect.
• If you're playing at a high difficulty level, consider going back to a lower level because all you're doing with high difficulty is allowing the AI to cheat and lowering the game's allowable margin for error. In other words, give yourself room to make mistakes without losing the game. I feel like this is especially true for scenarios.
• Make a list of setbacks that you're willing to accept and ones that merit a reload. Suggested list: catastrophic military blunder / miscalculation -> reload; game-critical wonder stolen less than three turns before you would finish it -> reload; everything else -> keep going, play for redemption/revenge!
• Anticipate setbacks before they actually happen, and make contingency plans so that setbacks are part of your game instead of a dead-end. "If another civ steals this wonder then I'll use the production for X."
• Keep using mods, actually. The "nowhere decent to settle" problem is not as much of an OCD thing as it is an actual problem with the base game IMO, and one of the reasons why I think many people once played ginormous maps until base game patching eventually made those maps unstable. Full disclosure: I happen to be a modder so my opinion might be slightly biased
• On the other hand, try to lower your bar / think about what an "acceptable" city location looks like even on a fertile map. Not every city in your empire needs to be a powerhouse. Sometimes I settle mediocre "buffer" cities just to score extra land/resources, stretch my emprire to better spots that are farther away, or provide protection from enemies. Plan for and embrace the inevitible b-grade cities in your empire, and see what you can get away with.

 

[DizzKneeLand33]

Once you start modding for the sake of modding itself, forever, not to resolve some clear subjective issues with the game or holes in content, you stop looking at the game as an adventure, and start looking at it at least partially as a cold mechanical construction that can be always made higher and grander. But the more mods you download, the more time and pain it brings to make all those mods compatible with each other. When combined with the general "adventure -> mechanics" outlook and the nature of diminishing returns effect the more mods you add to the (already large) game, I have ended in a position when I have spent more time and frustration making all this work, than I spend time and have fun with the final result. It's like making a ***** of a cake, and you struggle with adding more and more decorations and sugar to it (to resolve Every Imperfection),
only to realize it was not worth it and the cake felt better in its simple form.

This sounds exactly like a short essay I'm writing about life itself. Of course, I think Rousseau beat me to it in his "Discourse on the Arts and Sciences" but what you say above is very true. Civ games (2 onward for me) were a lot more fun when there was still "mystery" to the game. Breaking down everything to a scientific analysis doesn't "ruin" the game, but it does make it different, less new, less fun in some respects.

The same could be said for chess. The game was almost more fun as a 1500 rated player than a 2000+ rated. There was more mystery.

Back on topic: Civ needs an Ironman Mode like EU4 (et al) that you can set to prevent yourself from reloading old saves. This should be easy to implement.