How do you get such fast science victory times?

[zxcvbob]

I started to post this in the TSG 253 After Actions thread but decided any meaningful discussion needed to be separate both for posterity and so it didn't derail that thread. I played 253 again and got it down to 320 turns; I was shooting for 300. I used most of my cargo ships and a couple of caravans internally to boost food and production unless I had a CS request for a trade route. Caravans so they wouldn't be plundered.

I'm probably building too many wonders, and because of that getting too many engineers instead of scientists. (a few engineers is a good thing, mainly for manufactories) I did manage to avoid getting any great merchants even though I built Halicarnassus, Great Lighthouse, Machu Picchu, Colossus, and Big Ben -- they weren't all in the same city -- that meant I had to be very careful about working market and bank specialist slots.

I buy universities, schools, and labs in my capital and any other cities with observatories as soon as they unlock. I seldom have enough cash to buy them in every city. Sometimes I have to buy a library in a new city so my national college doesn't get delayed another dozen turns.

I usually wait unit a few turns after researching Atomic Theory before bulbing all my scientists one per turn. I might should start that a little earlier; as someone noted in my screenshot I had enough faith to buy at least 3 more scientists and an engineer. Often building Apollo is a bottleneck so maybe I should build that in my capital, and use a great engineer for Hubble instead of hard-building Hubble in the capital while my 2nd highest production city builds Apollo.

 

[The_Black_Vegetable]

mainly for manufactories

I never plant engineers.The manufactory is not very good in my opinion, as you also lose the tile improvement, so after chemistry and fertilizer, the extra yield is only +2. Also, there are enough worthwhile wonders to engineer, if you happen to spawn a couple of engineers too many. Hubble, Statue if you are going Freedom, and even Sydney Opera House can be worthwhile if you need that extra policy in the end game.

In fact, I would go as far as to say that planting great people is bad 90% of the time. The Babylon scientist is an exception, and so are piety great prophets. 'Planting' great generals can be good too, of course, but you won't be doing that for the tile yields.

 

[zxcvbob]

I always take "New Deal" for my 5th tenet in Freedom (mainly for my academies and archaeological landmarks), so a manufactory is quite good at that point. It's mediocre until then. Perhaps rushing a wonder is better, I don't know. I have started using most of my great artists for golden ages after Universal Suffrage (3rd tenet). Thanks.

 

[The_Black_Vegetable]

I rarely make academies either . I admit I have not done the math itself, but stronger players than me have calculated that it is better to keep all scientists for bulbing, rather than planting anything at all. The Babylon scientist at writing is an exception, and I would not be sure about an early Mayan calendar scientist, or perhaps a very early scientist following Great Library and Oracle. In any case, according to these calculations, the old adage of "plant all scientists before public schools" seems to be way off the mark.
This implies that you will probably 'should' not have too many planted great people (I also very rarely build archeologists in a science game, although I might steal some from the AI), and New Deal is not really worth it. Of course, you can argue that playing optimally is not always necessary, and you will get more enjoyment from the game if you have cities with insane tile yields, for instance trying to get a massive science capital with planted great people as Korea.

 

[zxcvbob]

I rarely make academies either . I admit I have not done the math itself, but stronger players than me have calculated that it is better to keep all scientists for bulbing, rather than planting anything at all. The Babylon scientist at writing is an exception, and I would not be sure about an early Mayan calendar scientist, or perhaps a very early scientist following Great Library and Oracle. In any case, according to these calculations, the old adage of "plant all scientists before public schools" seems to be way off the mark.
This implies that you will probably 'should' not have too many planted great people (I also very rarely build archeologists in a science game, although I might steal some from the AI), and New Deal is not really worth it. Of course, you can argue that playing optimally is not always necessary, and you will get more enjoyment from the game if you have cities with insane tile yields, for instance trying to get a massive science capital with planted great people as Korea.

That's interesting! Save any scientists after universities; only plant maybe the first one from Babylon, Liberty finisher, or Great Library plus Oracle. I'll have to try that. I am more interested in having a civilization that will stand the test of time than getting the earliest time possible, but I am in a rut and trying to improve my game while still having fun. I should be able to shave 50 turns off my science game while still doing that, and that will also help me move up in general from Emperor level to Immortal.

 

[zxcvbob]

Okay, I've figured out that for science victory I need to beeline Rocketry (because otherwise I can zoom almost all the way to Future Tech while waiting for Apollo to finish), and I should start bulbing my great scientists sooner (after Plastic rather than Atomic Theory.) If I run out, I can buy more, and if I still run out I would have run out anyway but at least I got started on the Apollo program sooner and it can't be rushed with an engineer.

If you capture an AI city late in the game (for example, Palenque after he tries to convert your holy city with a great prophet and swarms your land with dozens of missionaries), do you leave it a puppet or should you annex it after it comes out of resistance? It was a decent city and had some nice wonders, but only 1/3 the population of my own cities. I know to annex good cities that I capture early in the game, but not so sure in the modern era or later. FWIW, even though it was supposed to be a major warmonger penalty, nobody cared and I kept getting friendships, fair trade deals, and research agreements. They must have all hated Pacal too All I took was the capital and left him with 3 or 4 crappy cities; I could have taken one in the peace treaty and burned it down or sold it to Shaka but I didn't want it.

 

[fiddlesticks]

Here's a few of the things I focus on for fast science victories:

• Get your cities up ASAP. Chop forests, bully city states for cash, pillage trade routes, settle on mining lux's and then trade the lux for gold in peace deals. Max your gpt before the peace deal by micromanaging tiles.
• Manage your policies to get to rationalism without too many filler policies.
• Grow your population
• Switch some tiles to specialists when you get to the 2nd policy in rationalism. E.g., a 3 hammer hill tile should switch to a 2 hammer workshop +2 science. More of this if happiness is an issue.
• Conquer and annex if there is a way to do it under the happiness cap (ideally at least 3-5 techs before plastics) . Does your neighbour have a unique lux and/or a happiness wonder? Take it an annex. Trade routes can make up the lost population.
• Try to ally religious city states after Scientific Theory if you need extra faith for another GS.
• Bulb early GS's when: (1) you can speed up radio or plastics. Do you need your CS ally votes to pass GS boost in the WC? Bulb to radio before the vote. Do you have the cash on hand to buy most labs? Bulb to plastics.
• Bulb late GS's when: you are 7 turns past hitting your near-max science (all labs up, specialist slots worked, cities with non-essential production on research)
• Finish PT or Hubble when you have generated your last natural GS (you'll have to guess-timate - how many turns do I need to finish the last spaceship part tech? how many turns until the next natural GS?)
• Manage cash to buy parts - bully CS's, take loans, sell buildings, disband units.

 

[The_Black_Vegetable]

I've figured out that for science victory I need to beeline Rocketry

Indeed. In addition, a rule of thumb can be to use the rationalism finisher to get Satellites. Although it's possible to use it for more expensive techs, that will make it trickier to manage your faith-purchased scientists. Then, the capital can start on Hubble (as @fiddlesticks pointed out, you do want to keep an eye on your final naturally-spawned scientist), while your second city starts on Apollo. In case you have an engineer you would use it for Hubble.

should you annex it after it comes out of resistance

Yes, you will want to annex as quickly as possible, since the puppeted cities produce 25% science and culture less, they are typically not working good tiles, or building the things you want built. The only advantage of a puppeted city is that it does not increase the culture cost (but it does already increase the science cost).

 

[zxcvbob]

Another thing I just figured out; correct me if I'm wrong: Don't block Scholars in Residence if the AIs propose it and you're way ahead. Or even propose it yourself if there's nothing better you want like World Ideology, World's Fair, or un-embargoing the city states. If they can stay a little closer behind you, research agreements will be worth more and cost less. (less being the goodies you have to chip in besides the lump sum gold)

 

[zxcvbob]

Okay, getting better but I'm still not managing my great scientists well enough. I ended up with 2 extras (one of which I used this turn to bulb Internet) and 10000 unused faith. 305 turns, although some of that attributable to knowledge of the map. This time I didn't bother with Temple of Artemis or Great Library even tho' I think ToA is one of the best wonders in the game for science. I mainly focused on getting my first 4 cities up quickly. (and I should have bought a library in the 4th one immediately rather than wait for it to build one) Hanging Gardens was still a high priority because Honolulu did not have fresh water; if I missed that one, my guilds and national epic would have been in Samoa which had a garden. I still tried to build Petra but somebody beat me just as I was about finished.

I think buying that 4th library instead of waiting for it, and bulbing a few scientist early for things like Scientific Theory and Radio might have got me down below 300.

You'll see in the screen shot that some of my cities are building gold. That's because otherwise I might have needed to wait another turn to have enough for the last piece of the spaceship.

 

[zxcvbob]

I got it down to 296 turns. Used up most of my faith and all my scientists (got a natural great scientist on the very next turn), and enough gold with just a little to spare. I planted one academy and used scientists to rush Radio and Plastics, then had to buy 3 at the end with faith. If I'd been paying better attention I would have waited for that last scientist instead of spending 2500 faith for one and finished on 297.

Turn 300 was my goal, so I'm done. (and I'm tired)

 

[cocls]

I suggest you to post some screenshot about your games at T50-80.
The most important thing to win a fast science victory is always to build up your empire effeciently at early stage.
The details about how to use your GS at late game is not that important.

 

[zxcvbob]

I suggest you to post some screenshot about your games at T50-80.
The most important thing to win a fast science victory is always to build up your empire effeciently at early stage.
The details about how to use your GS at late game is not that important.

Here's screenshots at 50, 80 and 100. I'm not using cargo ships yet because the barbarians are not quite under control (I've killed all the ones on the mainland and the island to the NW.) I have a food caravan from Samoa to Honolulu. My trireme and 2 scouts are out exploring and my starting warrior is now a spearman who think he's a marine After I finish the National College I will settle one more city east between the truffles and the mountain.

 

[sebtanic]

I like this thread!

I replayed the early game several times to figure out how people end up with a capital size of 17 after 100 turns. Here's how it can be done:

TSG 253 Opening Actions Thread

This thread is used to discuss the game's opening decisions and strategies through the first 100 or so turns. Here you can post questions related to the game and share your achievements/anger/frustration/victories while you play. - What did you think about before starting the game, what was...

forums.civfanatics.com

It still took me until turn 290 to win. I tried out the belief that gives you science when a missionary spreads your religion to a city of different faith, but I don't think it was worth it. It's a waste of policies (I took two in Piety, for Great Mosque of Djenne and cheaper missionaries), and I guess other beliefs are more helpful to help with gold, growth, or happiness.

Also I didn't manage to buy any science buildings except maybe one or two. I just didn't have enough gold.

 

[The_Black_Vegetable]

Here's screenshots at 50, 80 and 100

Looking at the T100 screenshot, I don't see that many workers. For a coastal game you need fewer workers than for an inland game, but I would still like to have around 6 workers (I just checked my own screenshot, and I notice I also only have 5 ) for your four cities here. In an ideal world, you would steal all those workers, but generally on Prince that would be too slow, so you need an early worker from the capital, and maybe later you would need to make a few more. I noticed you were attempting Mausoleum in an expand, and while that is a decent strategy, that may have been a bit early given your lack of infrastructure. Also, in your T100, I see you are making Petra in Samoa, which is exactly what I was also doing, but it would have been better to get the lighthouse up first.

I think in general for coastal games, an important way to slingshot your game is to get cargo ships up, and if you have fish, to build lighthouses early. It's true you need to protect your trade routes from barbarians, but on Prince you can combine getting military with tributing city states. If you can use your early gold to buy a trireme that you can use to tribute CS to buy another unit, then you will have gained useful military presence without the need to let the capital get bogged down building units in that crucial early phase of the game.

 

[zxcvbob]

Looking at the T100 screenshot, I don't see that many workers. For a coastal game you need fewer workers than for an inland game, but I would still like to have around 6 workers (I just checked my own screenshot, and I notice I also only have 5 ) for your four cities here. In an ideal world, you would steal all those workers, but generally on Prince that would be too slow, so you need an early worker from the capital, and maybe later you would need to make a few more. I noticed you were attempting Mausoleum in an expand, and while that is a decent strategy, that may have been a bit early given your lack of infrastructure. Also, in your T100, I see you are making Petra in Samoa, which is exactly what I was also doing, but it would have been better to get the lighthouse up first.

I think in general for coastal games, an important way to slingshot your game is to get cargo ships up, and if you have fish, to build lighthouses early. It's true you need to protect your trade routes from barbarians, but on Prince you can combine getting military with tributing city states. If you can use your early gold to buy a trireme that you can use to tribute CS to buy another unit, then you will have gained useful military presence without the need to let the capital get bogged down building units in that crucial early phase of the game.

Yes, I think I bought a lighthouse soon after turn 100 in Tonga. And cargo ships are the way to go, but it's imperative to get a trireme out first and have it protect the cargo ship instead of exploring; let the scouts explore, and the trireme can join them later when all the nearby coastal barb camps are gone. Or build a second trireme for exploration.

When do you stop shaking-down the neighbor city states and start befriending them? I'm probably switching modes too soon when I could be getting several hundred more gold. My scouts soon captured several barbarian workers and settlers and I sent most home to be workers, (if the city-state was not hostile I returned it) but it took a while for them to get there, and even so I only had 4 workers.

 

[The_Black_Vegetable]

When do you stop shaking-down the neighbor city states and start befriending them?

It depends a little on the situation. If I already completed a quest for them or they have a good quest that I can fulfill quickly, I might leave them alone, otherwise keep going as long as they are willing to give you money. I would not keep building/buying military to accomplish that, though. Having said that, I'm not really an expert on CS tributing, since I only do it with these GotM games at Prince level. On Immortal or Deity it's not a viable strategy to try.