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How do you keep AIs from Vassaling everyone?

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by CivMcNut, Jun 11, 2013.

  1. CivMcNut

    CivMcNut Having Fun At It

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    I have been playing some games on Monarch difficulty, and I notice there to be a tendancy for the stronger AIs to start vassaling the weaker ones rather than just completely conquer them like I do. It has gotten very frustrating to me, because sometimes I will be in the middle of wiping out a weak foe, and they will surrender to the strong AI who I am trying to beat.

    I wanted to get some good strategy to avoid this from happening so much. It is very frustrating to have good diplomatic relations instantly ruined with a strong AI when they start protecting a Civ I have already been at war with. Am I better off fighting these strong AIs early in the game to avoid this from happening? Should I be looking real hard when fighting the weak foes to see if they will surrender to me first?

    For what it's worth, I have noticed this happening a lot on these Pangea maps I've been playing. Perhaps on other map types this wouldn't be as bad.

    The biggest problem with having all these vassal states is you start up dogpile wars if you want to fight any one of the civs. Sometimes it's those vassal states that make just that handfull of extra troops that is too much for my Civ to handle while I am trying to take on the master Civ. Any advice?
     
  2. Manco Capac

    Manco Capac Friday,13 June,I Collapse

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    On monarch, I have simply never seen a case like this. The AI is pathetically too weak to start rolling like wild fire. Usually, it is easy to control the world diplomacy through your tech advantage. Don't want some peace vassaling, create tensions between them. Don't want chain capitulations, force peace. Tech advantages allow that easily. And whatever, who cares about super AI on monarch. They suck too much to be a serious contender to the human player. Perhaps some AW games where you attempt early cultural victory...that was the only moment those monarch AI's became fearful and annoying.
     
  3. awldune

    awldune Chieftain

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    Are you familiar with begging for gold to create a peace treaty?

    If an AI is pleased with you, you can ask them for a small amount of gold or gold per turn. This creates a 10-turn peace treaty if they accept.

    If you do this with all the civs that you aren't targeting when you declare war, then those guys will not be able to accept a peace vassal offer from the civ you that you attack.

    Another thought would be to disable vassal states in your game options, or start taking advantage of the feature for yourself when your war target is willing to capitulate.
     
  4. TheMeInTeam

    TheMeInTeam Top Logic

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    AI will only DoW on you to take PAvassals if they would be willing to DoW on you normally through trade. AI will only cap your target if also fighting.

    AI can't DoW on you with peace treaty in place, so consider that also. Otherwise, just attack targets in an order that won't draw this behavior.
     
  5. CivMcNut

    CivMcNut Having Fun At It

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    I don't remember Monarch being this hard before, I have won at Emporer a few times, but usually like playing Monarch cause I like to see how bad I can crush the computer. I had one game I completely lost when Montezuma won a domination victory over me while I was trying to build a spaceship. He had a MASSIVE top of the line tech army that steamrolled through my infantry like a knife through butter, and I sorta remember him being a usually low tech AI from my previous experience years ago.

    This game I'm on now, Peter has taken control of 40% of the map and when he fought me, I was drafting / spitting out defensive troops I fast as I could to hold off wave after wave of knights, war elephants, and trebuchets. I could never mount up an offensive force I was getting so beat up. This is the kind of thing that shouldn't be happening until higher difficulty levels I feel like.

    I think it's got a lot to do with these Pangea maps I'm playing. You cripple the AI when they have to make a naval invasion to get you, because they aren't very good at those. On these Pangea maps they just come storming right on over and get you if you let your guard down.
     
  6. CivMcNut

    CivMcNut Having Fun At It

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    So if I'm at pleased or friendly with the strong AI, and I ask them for a small amount of money as a gift, that creates a peace treaty? That seems pretty bizzare.

    I wouldn't want to disable vassal states, I'm one of those players that likes to play the game right out of the box the way it was originally setup.
     
  7. awldune

    awldune Chieftain

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    It's a strange and uninuitive mechanic. Similarly, if an AI asks a gift from you and you accept, that creates a peace treaty.

    You can only beg every so often. There was a thread about the mechanics of it fairly recently.

    I found it:

    http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=497089
     
  8. CivMcNut

    CivMcNut Having Fun At It

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    What is a PAvassal?

    I think next game I will put a little more thought into who I'm attacking, it seems like picking on the weakest Civ isn't always the best strategy. Is there any other ways to create peace treaties besides what the previous poster listed?
     
  9. awldune

    awldune Chieftain

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    PAvassal = "peace vassal". This is when an AI submits to be the vassal of another who he is not at war with. It can happen when the AI is losing a war to someone else, or sometimes just when a weak civ is good friends with a strong one.
     
  10. TheMeInTeam

    TheMeInTeam Top Logic

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    One civ deliberately throws away a chance at victory in order to help another win, through the vassal system and tech gifting. The most typical example is a trashnoobscrubgoto**** AI like pericles expanding to 4 cities on immortal during the same timeframe sury expands to 15 cities, then becomes his vassal and gives him all his spare copies of resources such that sury has ~25% of the world's land in a standard 7 civ game...before any wars or even capturing barb cities.

    The AI doesn't care about throwing away the game, however, as it's not programmed to typically pursue victory anyway, thus this arrangement is a de facto permanent alliance, even though they call it a "vassal state" (known here as peace vassaling)
     
  11. awldune

    awldune Chieftain

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    Didn't mean to step on your toes Phil, I am bored at work. :mischief:
     
  12. TheMeInTeam

    TheMeInTeam Top Logic

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    We had similar thoughts at a similar timing.

    Though I had more copious quantities of frivilous typing, so I get a better grade because of MOAR WERDZ.
     
  13. CivMcNut

    CivMcNut Having Fun At It

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    Yeah I hear that about the peace vassals. On my game against Monty, he beat the Spanish up early through his own war and had them as a pretty powerful vassal most of the game. Could Isabell have been doing the research for him or something? I am really suspicious of Monty getting high tech.

    With this game against Peter I have still going on, I was the one doing the conquering and taking over the cities, but twice the AIs surrendered to Peter. When the Persians surrendered I was forced to immediately make peace with them even though the AP had been burned down. I presume from reading the previous posts because I had a peace treaty in effect with Peter at the time. When the Greeks surrendered to him later, the Persians and the Russians both declared war on me. Funny thing was I don't even remember Peter taking over any cities in either case. The Greeks might have well done that Peace Vassal thing you're talking about, cause I don't even think Peter was at war with them.
     
  14. Lennier

    Lennier Emperor

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    Or, accept their capitulation before they P-vassal to a neutral power (or cap to one of your co-beligerants). If you've been doing most of conquering, they should be willing to cap to you before capping to someone else. Wait too long, and they'll be someone else's vassal.

    A civ capping makes everyone else at war with them make peace. A civ accepting a P-vassal will automatically declare war on everyone their new vassal is at war with.
     
  15. CivMcNut

    CivMcNut Having Fun At It

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    Maybe this is why I need to play on Emporer again, I capture one city and these Monarch AIs are ready to throw in the towel.
     
  16. awldune

    awldune Chieftain

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    Capitulation mechanics are a little mysterious, but I don't find there to be a difference between difficulty levels. As I understand it, it is more about your "war success" (kills versus losses and cities captured), your relative tech levels (tech advantage helps), and your relative size and power (number of cities and number of units.)
     
  17. Izuul

    Izuul Level 86

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    Vassal them first.
     
  18. Manco Capac

    Manco Capac Friday,13 June,I Collapse

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    :clap:

    ....

    No seriously...
     
  19. Olson

    Olson Warlord

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    CIVILIZATION IV > Civ4 - Strategy & Tips > Civ4 Strategy Articles > "Stop Rivals From Vassalizing Your Enemies"

    http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=328907
     
  20. Ondskan

    Ondskan Emperor

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    Give them cash or tech in exchange for them signing a peace deal with their inferior enemies. Then kill them yourself or bring them into war against their former conquerer. They will be pleased.
     

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