How do you manage to even play for 5 mins?

N

Noob-ish

Chieftain
Joined
Jul 1, 2007
Messages
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Sunderland, UK
I bought civ5 the week it came out and i only played a few games, i stopped playing after just the second day and returned to civ4. Ever since i returned to playing civ4 i have always had a question nawing at the back of my mind... how do any of you manage to sit through an entire game when the AI has LITERALLY zero chance of winning? I don't mean or want this to be another thread that knocks civ5, i only ask because iam genuinly curious how you can do it! I couldnt start a game on civ4 if i knew before i even loaded up that the AI would have zero chance at beating me.

Every couple of weeks or so i take a peek at the civ5 forums to see what has been done in the latest patch, now from what i've seen it looks like they have done a lot to fix many issues, but they have yet to touch on the flaw that keeps me from even thinking about doing a reinstall of civ5... and that is the AI ability at raging war! The AI literally doesnt have a chance, some have said the AI is a little better but still an easy push over:(... so how do you bring yourself to play this game?

Again... this is not another thread bashing Civ5, i genuinly just want to hear why and how any of you play it?
 
I don't. I sold this game and went and bought X3: Terran Conflict. From the looks of Civ V, it looks like some people like playing against AI that can't win, yet is "playing to win." MP would be nice, if it was done better.

/shrug
 
Does the AI still send in seige units ahead of or even without protection???

If that happened in civ4 id be exiting the game quicker than you can say "that sucks".
 
You could try playing with Thalassicus' Balance Combined Mod on Deity. I doubt the AI is so easy on that mode.

That said, I even remember that there was a mod out there that introduced the Sid difficulty. You might want to try that out too.
 
I had a break of literally months from Civ V, but now I'm loving it.

AI is far from perfect but there's improvement already from things in the past.

I had to (rage)quit my game when Alexander smashed me with an attack of tanks and infantry followed by artillery and air attacks, it was a big surprise. AI makes boneheaded attacks too but I'm confident it will get better and better by patches.

Myself, I just simply can't get back to stacks o' doom after the tactical combat.
 
Like you, I purchased the the game early, played maybe a month, and just didn't like it. I switched back to Civ4 with the excellent Caveman2Cosmos modpack and LOVED IT!!!! However the AI cannot comprehend all the new buildings and techs in C2C and the AI "has LITERALLY zero chance of winning". But I enjoy the sandbox style of play and Civ4 C2C excels at this. Lots and lots of little decisions to make.

Now how did I come around to enjoying Civ5? Like you I read this forum to see how the dialog was progressing. Well the March patch was step one. There were enough positive comments here to warrant another try.

The second step was the most important for me; In January I read the thread now linked in aatami's signature: Civ V haters, read this most excellent post!. From aatami's link I recommend you skim the whole thread, and read in detail the posts about play style. What Polycrates and aatami and others pointed out was that it was the min-max and micromanagement that I loved about Civ4. Lots and lots of small decisions.

When I returned to try Civ5 post-patch, I played it not as Civ4, but as Civ5. I didn't worry about the small decisions taken away from me, but focused on the big decsions left to me. I just won a diplomatic victory at prince level with Egypt, and now I'll try King with Germany. I know a Prince diplomatic victory is no big deal on these forums, but I enjoyed it, and I'll play some more. I'll play both Civ4 and Civ5 depending on what gaming experience I'm looking for.

So it is possible to enjoy Civ5 even after initially hating it, and I do recommend you try it again. You must be curious because you keep coming here to look around, true?

The only way to answer the question "Will I enjoy it again?" is to try it again.
 
If you are a experienced player you must play on emperor or above.

you need to give the AI the numeric advantage, without this the AI doesnt stand a chance.
 
Fabiano1979 said:
If you are a experienced player you must play on emperor or above.

you need to give the AI the numeric advantage, without this the AI doesn't stand a chance.
Click to expand...

yeah, but I imagine this is hard with 1UPT. it was possible with stacking
also from the rumors I have been hearing, the AI has also problem with winning at all.

also when the game is nerfed to a wargame and the war AI is bad, thats a problem.

IE what i mean: bad combat AI in caesar 3 game wasn´t such a problem, since it was 95% builder game
 
Considering the concept is almost entirely new, i'd say gameplay is a sharp twist in trying to determine an optimal strategy as much as simply forgetting what previous iterations offered.
Sure, the challenge is somehow weird & the AI might have felt abysmal to some Deity gogetters... but you have to admit - there's the casual & the nerd crowds colliding on features.

5mins of more isn't in question here, it's more like most people can't find as much cracks to cheat their ways into **faster** results (thus, higher scores!) than they once were able to.

At first, it was the builder that had lost its sense of slow but progressive growth into a famous or dominant Empire.
Then, it was the Stackers of overwhelming forces that gave unlimited war scales & the illusion of competitive AIs by numbers rather than skill on the battlefield.
Soon followed by the Economic, happiness, ICS, Science, Diplomacy (etc) complainers that targeted the entire balance for what it really was -- a game DIFFERENT than everything else they've been trained to expect.

Yep, that's exactly what i'm saying; you can't judge a book by staring at its first page for 5 minutes and if you want to kick the 8- years old kids away from their "own" games for a lesson of History rather than a competition of equals, be my guest.
You're still missing the point of CiV no matter how obvious it was, is and will become.

Cuz, it's not about how or why you play... it's about what you make (or gain out) of it for reasons that last hours instead of minutes.
 
Simply put: The AI has shocked me with it's ability to wage war and peace. I'll explain.

Current game is King level on Large Map. I am Persia and I started surrounded by copious amounts of Iron, Gold and Silver. I focused on making money and developing a strong economy with rapid expansion (REX). Liberty social policy. Consequently, I have low culture and my empire looks like a patchwork of cities stretching across the continent. No big blanket of color of me on my minimap.

On my continent was Rome, Spain, Japan, Mongols, and Russia. Japan and Mongols bordered me with me to the South against the icecaps. I expanded quickly to cut off Japan and Mongols access to many luxuries while settling a Gem and Mountain city near my southeastern coast. I knew war was coming with Japan and the Mongols so I made sure to have a lot of cash on hand to deter their aggression.

Japan attacked first. They attacked my city closest to them and destroyed most of my defenders. The city bombardment halted their advance and I used cash to buy reinforcements. I went on the offensive and didn't stop until Japan was conquered. Japan had shot their wad on their initial rush and had nothing left. They were easy.

I shifted my military east and attacked Mongols out of pre-emption. I was so close to their capital after taking two cities that I continued on. The Mongols had nothing. No defenses, no military. They were even easier to crush.

The last of the Mongol cities I conquered bordered Russia. Russia hated me by this point so I couldn't see much of her corner of the continent. I did manage to scout out her position a bit with an Open borders. This is were the game took a big turn for me.

I focused on consolidating my empire and buying happiness buildings through Medieval and Renn. Rome and Spain were way up North behind several City States and they lived in the dark ages. I knew my immediate threat was Russia so the bulk of my forces massed at the border.

As expected, Russia attacked. What I was not expecting was a bum rush of Riflemen. Russia had beelined to rifle-tech and cranked out a bajillion Riflemen and Cannons. My army of Swordsmen was obliterated and Russia seized my Mongol puppets along her border. She didn't stop. I foolishly tried to reclaim cities with rush bought soldiers. Russia retreated the wounded and had reserves to cycle into the battle, all while protecting her flanks and cannons! My retaking cities only served to put my Generals in danger during counterattack. I lost three Great Leader Generals with my arrogance. I foolishly had assumed the AI had only one wave of attacks.

Suddenly, my Gem Mountain city in the southeast was surrounded by a water borne invasion force! This was a core empire city that I counted on for production and Gems. I never expected Russia to open up a second front. Not only was my Treasury drained and I was losing my newly conquered Mongol empire, but I now faced a significant threat to my heartland.

Then Rome and Spain declared war on me! Either my weakened state or Russia's purchase of allies added two new adversaries to my war. I had arrogantly believed my friendship with Spain would keep her occupied with Rome, but I'm certain Russia bribed them both to attack me.

I was bigger than Russia and much bigger than Rome and Spain. But together, their combined forces drew me into a protracted war of attrition. I rushed to get Riflemen and they died as fast as I could produce them. My only saving grace was the consequence of two unintended decisions.

I made allies with many City States to hook up with good luxuries to keep my happiness under control. I ended up going Patronage to buff this benefit. A side benefit was the militaristic cities between me and Rome/Spain kept popping out good units for my war against Rome and Spain. I was able to hold them off without having to commit substantial forces to that front with those units. Plus, Rome and Spain spent a lot of time beating on the City States without actually conquering them. Eventually, Rome and Spain agreed to peace.

The Russian front was a brutal quagmire. I couldn't retake my lost cities but Russia couldn't advance any further due to terrain chokepoints. I begged for peace several times to no avail. Finally, a suicidal push allowed me to retake my Gem city at a loss of five Riflemen. This time, Russia agreed to peace for a giant pile of my gold.

My only other saving decision was popping several Golden Ages using Great Leaders. Persia's golden ages kept me in the game, allowing my troops to move just a little bit faster.

The peace with Russia has allowed me to focus on reinforcing defensive chokepoints while playing catch up in Science. I am social policy-ing Rationalism and I entered the Industrial age at the same time as Russia. Unfortunately, across the Ocean the Iroquois have just entered the Modern age. Russia needs to be dealt with quickly but will another war drag me into another stalmate? I can't allow myself to fall behind in Production or Science.

Can the AI be better? Sure. But I don't feel like it's a sure thing. I am competing against all Civs and I must make careful decisions. I can't criticize Russia's strategy - she exploited my weaknesses better than I could have imagined. In fact, she retreated several times to lure me into committing forces into untenable positions which she promptly destroyed.

To conclude: This game has been a lot of fun. I am not certain that I will win, despite my expansive empire and mountains of gold. I am number 2 in Science by a significant margin and dead last in Culture. The world leader, the Iroquois, has a vast science empire stretching over three or four small continents. I have no Navy. Russia is hot on my heels in Science and sits upon a corner of the world made up Gems and vast mines. Although having fewer cities, her cities dwarf the populations in my cities. She is a Production war machine.
 
Noob-ish said:
I bought civ5 the week it came out and i only played a few games, i stopped playing after just the second day and returned to civ4. Ever since i returned to playing civ4 i have always had a question nawing at the back of my mind... how do any of you manage to sit through an entire game when the AI has LITERALLY zero chance of winning? I don't mean or want this to be another thread that knocks civ5, i only ask because iam genuinly curious how you can do it! I couldnt start a game on civ4 if i knew before i even loaded up that the AI would have zero chance at beating me.
Click to expand...

Umm you think the AI has a chance in Civ4? I am confused. The AI there is no better. It just has a simpler environment to operate in and more effective handicaps to cover its mistakes.

Sure if you don't do gamey things the Civ4 AI is a challenge, but the same is true of Civ5.
 
Becephalus said:
Umm you think the AI has a chance in Civ4? I am confused. The AI there is no better. It just has a simpler environment to operate in and more effective handicaps to cover its mistakes.

Sure if you don't do gamey things the Civ4 AI is a challenge, but the same is true of Civ5.
Click to expand...

your posts makes virtually no sense from many points of view.

1)
"all this civ5 is so much more complicated, so AI is actually better, since civ4 is simpler."

wrong
a) civ4 is more complex in every way other then hexes.
b) as a player, I dont really care how fun is achieved, whether by suitable AI environment or stronger AI, I only care about the result of this

2) "AI in civ4 can´t win"
thats simply not the true. in my last game, I had to precisely stop 3 civs, who were closing on different victory conditions.
gotms alway include "lost" submissions, and keep in mind, that most pf the people who lose won´t even submit

civ4 AI can definitely win even if player attempts to stop it.
and it can definitely win if left alone. (but i didnt check the lowest difficulties)

the same however can´t be said for civ5. there was a Deity poster who setup everything for AI to win, but it still didn't win

3) gamey
gamey things are bad. it basically means using strategies, that AI can´t.
there are such methods in civ4 and are neccesary to play on higher difficulties.
but it still feels like civ4.

from what I understand, whole civ5 is gamey, since the AI can barely do anything.

the occasional noob who posts about how AI outmaneuvered him on hex grid, isn´t really commenting on the AI, but on hos own skill and IQ

it´s really the same as if I said, that civ4 AI manages it´s workers better, therefore it´s great.
no, I just suck
 
Nicol.Bolas said:
the occasional noob who posts about how AI outmaneuvered him on hex grid, isn´t really commenting on the AI, but on hos own skill and IQ
Click to expand...

I think you should expand on this thought more. Are you saying that if an AI is outmaneuvering human opponents, then those humans are merely dumb noobs with low IQs? Or are you suggesting some other type of verifiable test that indicates sufficient AI programming? Like what, exactly?

I never considered video games as a solid measurer of IQ but I defer to your expertise. You seem to have a well thought out and cogent argument for using Civ 5 as a test of intelligence. I'd like to hear it.
 
I've had some games of civ5 that are really easy, some that are hard. Some games I've played and didn't really stand a chance from the get go, some I've been in the lead the whole time.

If you are playing on Deity and winning all yours games, and its no challenge, then congrats, you are really really good at civ. But personally I find myself improving all the time and really enjoy seeing myself progress as a player
 
Noob-ish said:
Does the AI still send in seige units ahead of or even without protection???

If that happened in civ4 id be exiting the game quicker than you can say "that sucks".
Click to expand...

It wouldn't happen in CiIV because the AI would send a SoD with a mix of 50 units, and in that mix, somewhere, there would be a few siege units. If you win too easily on CiV, crank up the level until you don't. I'm sure you'll find one that is challenging. If you can beat CiV on Deity easily - and I seriously doubt that you can - try Chess.
 
Jatta Pake said:
I think you should expand on this thought more. Are you saying that if an AI is outmaneuvering human opponents, then those humans are merely dumb noobs with low IQs? Or are you suggesting some other type of verifiable test that indicates sufficient AI programming? Like what, exactly?

I never considered video games as a solid measurer of IQ but I defer to your expertise. You seem to have a well thought out and cogent argument for using Civ 5 as a test of intelligence. I'd like to hear it.
Click to expand...

Hex grid vs tile grid makes little difference. What (I believe) he is trying to say is that the AI can't handle 1upt tactically as well as it could handle SoD tactically. The AI isn't a genius at either one, but 1upt absolutely cripples it. The tactical weaknesses of the AI are less important (though still there to a degree) with SoD's.

Therefore, in at least this respect, (and in my opinion many others) with the current AI... SoD's (and Civ IV by extension) provide a greater challenge from the AI. It has more of a chance because it isn't crippled by having to make so many more choices, many of them poor, because of the drastic difference in mobility. Thus, if you ARE outmaneuvered by this AI in this 1upt game, that says more about your tactical ability than it does about the AI.
 
civ5 multiplayer>civ4 multiplayer
civ4 singleplayer>civ5 singleplayer

If only they can fix multiplayer games for 8+ men. Rumors say that the next patch is for multi.
 
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