How do you play for antiquity conquest?

[stealth_nsk]

I play peacefully pretty well, but I can't grasp, how do you play for conquest in antiquity.

First problem is units. I believe I seen in discussions here that to reliably conquer a city you need like 10 units. If you build each unit for 4 turns, that's 40 turns your starting city doing nothing else? Maybe a bit less if you also burn all your gold. So, I assume you may want to build some infrastructure first, but doesn't that mean that you'll have an army only closer to the age end?

Second problem is the distance. There are some rare occasions of AIs starting pretty close, but on standard maps you usually have a distance of 2 settlements between your capital cities. So, even if AI settles in your direction, you also need at least one settlement before conquest will start making sense?

 

[tedhebert]

I play peacefully most of time also, but when I choose a military leader and civ to start the game, I usually start the same way as normal so 3 or 4 scouts depending on map size, then instead of going on and cranking up settlers like crazy, I only build 2 of them then replace all the others with military units... I disagree that you need 10 units in the beginning of antiquity (up to about turn 50/60) because there are usually no walls. Get your first commander and (edited: FULLY) pack him up and with 1 or 2 (edited: ADDITIONAL) supporting units that's usually enough to go and grab 1 or 2 settlements... of course it's possible that all your neighbors will be cranking up units too, but there's usually one weak one somewhere out there.

All the times I've tried just cranking up military units from the start to try and attack early have been utter failures... I wait until turns 50/60 before going on the offensive (I play long ages all the time) to establish a solid base first

But as I said, I'm not a normally militaristic player, so maybe those that are have better plans than this...

 

[Evolena]

The first Maneuver promotion (Mobility) for faster movement helps a lot for distance. In my small experience, I find it a more useful first promotion than Initiative (which is usually my second, even if that delays the first commandation point).

 

[McSpank01]

One issue for me is that the AI goes all in on building walls in the current few patches. This leads to many fortified districts that need conquering. Meaning you get into a huge meat grinder and progress is very slow. This also means I probably want a few siege units to speed things up

Essentially that means early wars are not all that productive unless a civ is parked right next to my capital and plops some towns down that I can easily capture

 

[MutilationWave]

The first Maneuver promotion (Mobility) for faster movement helps a lot for distance. In my small experience, I find it a more useful first promotion than Initiative (which is usually my second, even if that delays the first commandation point).

Initiative and Mobility are the keys for early conquest. I always take Discipline first so I can begin gaining experience on the free commander. Also bring slingers, use a warrior in rough or forest to tank damage. Use rivers to slow your enemy and destroy them with the slingers. Use your commander's micro tactical abilities from Initiative to keep your slingers as safe as possible, or move them in position so they fire every turn instead of walking them. Pillage rural improvements to heal if you get a chance. Most importantly, hit them before the walls go up.

I agree with everything ted said except the end. I want a full packed commander practiced to level 2 on hostile IPs, even if you're planning on suzing them. I haven't been able to bring myself to go as fast as you yet.

 

[tedhebert]

I agree with everything ted said except the end. I want a full packed commander practiced to level 2 on hostile IPs, even if you're planning on suzing them. I haven't been able to bring myself to go as fast as you yet.

What I meant is a full packed commander with maybe 1 or 2 additional supporting units... not just 2 units in the commander... sorry if I was unclear... edited original post !

 

[tedhebert]

One issue for me is that the AI goes all in on building walls in the current few patches. This leads to many fortified districts that need conquering. Meaning you get into a huge meat grinder and progress is very slow. This also means I probably want a few siege units to speed things up

Essentially that means early wars are not all that productive unless a civ is parked right next to my capital and plops some towns down that I can easily capture

I only played 2 games since 1.2.5 and one of them totally peaceful, so I haven't noticed walls coming up sooner in antiquity... My last game was Napoleon rev with Assyria and i wiped Confucius Han off the map pretty early... he had no walls and I goaded him into declaring on me

 

[A_Most_Foolish_Fool]

I play peacefully most of time also, but when I choose a military leader and civ to start the game, I usually start the same way as normal so 3 or 4 scouts depending on map size, then instead of going on and cranking up settlers like crazy, I only build 2 of them then replace all the others with military units... I disagree that you need 10 units in the beginning of antiquity (up to about turn 50/60) because there are usually no walls. Get your first commander and (edited: FULLY) pack him up and with 1 or 2 (edited: ADDITIONAL) supporting units that's usually enough to go and grab 1 or 2 settlements... of course it's possible that all your neighbors will be cranking up units too, but there's usually one weak one somewhere out there.

All the times I've tried just cranking up military units from the start to try and attack early have been utter failures... I wait until turns 50/60 before going on the offensive (I play long ages all the time) to establish a solid base first

But as I said, I'm not a normally militaristic player, so maybe those that are have better plans than this...

Completely agree with all of this. Getting set up first makes a huge difference as getting to 3-5 Settlements with potentially 2 of them being cities is going to be a big boost to your gold and production (through resources), which will help to turn the tide. Focusing on set-up can also help you to get more of an advantage influence wise since you'll be able to reduce your relationship through normal game actions (forward settling, letting the AI denounce you when your borders are close to each other, etc) rather than wasting it on denouncing them yourself. In my opinion, the most important thing to set up is that first commander by beelining Discipline and taking that new commander with a couple of units to attack Independent Powers. Getting to that +5 Combat Strength bonus makes a big difference in better being able to overcome Deity combat bonuses without needing to flood the map with units. If your commander is at level 3 before the war begins, it won't take that much to hit that bonus and once you get that bonus you'll tend to hit the turning point in those wars where it is easier to make an offensive push (even if they get walls up). Some other things that can really help are using influence to get some allies (war is a lot easier when you are not fighting everyone), set up military endeavors (+3 Combat Strength is powerful), and to have Independent Powers on the opposite side of the enemy civ launch raids (the AI is going to have a much more difficult time when they are caught up in a pincer attack).

Thinking about the AI's free walls, getting to that +5 Combat Strength from your commander will be a big help in overcoming them. That said, it is important to not put too much pressure on yourself to take the AI's capital too soon. Taking valuable towns deprives the opponent of resources and gives them to you. I would only target their capital cities early (before they get the 4 walls up) and later in the age when you have siege units and cavalry to take them out. Later on in the age, you should have already taken some of their towns and so their unit output is going to falter, which means those walls become nothing more than a very brief delay rather than an obstacle.

Civ and leader choice can make a big difference here as well in ways both obvious and a little less so. Rome, Assyria, and Persia all get +2 Settlement limit from their unique civics (as well as combat bonuses). That settlement limit helps to ensure victory in prolonged wars since it helps you in focusing on taking out towns to weaken the AI's military before finally taking the capital. Different leaders have unique strategies that they can make use of too. One of the less obvious ones is using Genghis Khan to get an immediate military force and independent power clear to strengthen your commander early (this is a big part of why he is much better than Charlemagne who he is often compared with). Napoleon Revolutionary's Culture boosts (now that they have been buffed) help him to hit the new Settlement limits (and combat boosts) earlier than other military focused leaders. Pillaging is very useful to do anyway, but Simon Bolivar gets almost no penalty from doing so (though he is admittedly on the weaker side right now).

 

[stealth_nsk]

I play peacefully most of time also, but when I choose a military leader and civ to start the game, I usually start the same way as normal so 3 or 4 scouts depending on map size, then instead of going on and cranking up settlers like crazy, I only build 2 of them then replace all the others with military units... I disagree that you need 10 units in the beginning of antiquity (up to about turn 50/60) because there are usually no walls. Get your first commander and (edited: FULLY) pack him up and with 1 or 2 (edited: ADDITIONAL) supporting units that's usually enough to go and grab 1 or 2 settlements... of course it's possible that all your neighbors will be cranking up units too, but there's usually one weak one somewhere out there.

All the times I've tried just cranking up military units from the start to try and attack early have been utter failures... I wait until turns 50/60 before going on the offensive (I play long ages all the time) to establish a solid base first

But as I said, I'm not a normally militaristic player, so maybe those that are have better plans than this...

Just to check, which difficulty level do you play on? I normally play on Immortal where AI starts getting combat bonuses on top of others.

 

[tedhebert]

Just to check, which difficulty level do you play on? I normally play on Immortal where AI starts getting combat bonuses on top of others.

I always play immortal too

Edit: I should add that I'm using the players combat power mod to help me figure out which civs are strong and which aren't military wise

 

[uppi]

I play peacefully pretty well, but I can't grasp, how do you play for conquest in antiquity.

First problem is units. I believe I seen in discussions here that to reliably conquer a city you need like 10 units. If you build each unit for 4 turns, that's 40 turns your starting city doing nothing else? Maybe a bit less if you also burn all your gold. So, I assume you may want to build some infrastructure first, but doesn't that mean that you'll have an army only closer to the age end?

4 turns is a bit much. You should be producing units in 2 turns, maybe 3 turns for a chariot. If you don't have that kind of production, you should probably not go to war, yet. You first need a bit of a power base to strike from, so get those 2-3 settlers out first.

Second problem is the distance. There are some rare occasions of AIs starting pretty close, but on standard maps you usually have a distance of 2 settlements between your capital cities. So, even if AI settles in your direction, you also need at least one settlement before conquest will start making sense?

Yes, if you plan to attack someone, you should forward settle them first. Not only will this give you a base for buying reinforcement and letting units heal, it will also sour relations, so you might not even have to spend influence on a denouncement.

The best opening move is usually to snipe a town. If you find one that is lightly defended, you can usually overrun it, before reinforcements arrive. Then (or if that is not possible, at the start of the war), chose a defensible position, dig in and brace for the counterattack. Whittle the enemy units down and gain experience for your commander. If you are threatened of being overrun, pack up and get out of there, heal and fight another day. Usually, once you have Order on one commander, you can try to go on the offensive, but it will still be quite a slog to take a capital. And bring siege units.

Terrain is important, because in Antiquity you tend to have not enough tools to overcome it. So chose carefully from which side to approach a city. Navigable rivers can be a death trap for enemy forces, but also impede your assault quite a bit. Bring ships if you can.

 

[pjotroos]

Fellow Immortal player here. Think most of my points have already been mentioned above, but since you asked for a variety of perspectives:
- The first 40-50 turns are the same as in a peaceful game; get a couple of scouts out, get a basic warehouse building or two, get 2-3 settlers out and figure out where your 2nd city will be, develop a decent science and culture base.
- What changes is your scouting and expansion objectives - find your neighbor, find a solid settle spots in their direction, and expand there. If you've cut off all the AI players from a part of the continent, ignore even the most brilliant settle spots there. If you are very lucky, one of the opponents will send their settler on a long trek and settle that town for you. Never do friendly greeting. Leave an opening to fight any of them.
- Beeline discipline, get the first commander out, pair him up with a warrior and slinger, and immediately start leveling up on an independent power; at minimum, I want him at rank 2 before first war breaks out.
- The first objective is to get movement after unpacking on that commander, and the second is to get Order unlocked early into the war - so I always commit first four points to Assault tree; ideally the left-hand side, since I'll have more melee than ranged units, with obvious caveat:
- Commit to where your power comes from - if your leader or civ has cavalry bonus, beeline the unlock for cavalry right after library. If you have unique infantry, spam it - doesn't matter that infrantry falls off later, I expect a few of them to die, anyway. If you have unique ranged unit, build just enough frontline to serve as meatwall, and go down the right-hand side in the Assault tree on the commander.
- Be strategic with the independent states - is there one near your neighbor's borders? If there is, it doesn't matter what type it is, suzerain it. You want a certain amount of units hitting the enemy. If some of them are city-state units, you need to produce fewer yourself. If the city state falls, brilliant. Go and conquer it, it doesn't have any walls.
- Try to start the war as soon as you rolled up first commander towards an enemy. Pack the fourth settler for a forward camp if your borders aren't close enough naturally. The town is there for two reasons. One - you ideally want early skirmishes from within its border, so you can use the town centre as natural fortification for your ranged units. Two - while you fight, all your gold goes into unit upgrades within its borders or purchasing new units there.
- Until you have Order on the commander, you are on the defense. Get it first by baiting enemy units towards you, then push forward.
- When you can, move your infantry and cavalry onto their rural tiles and pillage for health; if you're at 70 HP or under, most of the time pillaging is better than attacking - you get stronger and hit their economy at the same time.
- The objective of the first war is to get your first settlement within the next ten turns; if you can take it and continue fighting, brilliant, but if after 10 turns you have a stalemate, just accept peace in exchange for one of their towns. It counts the same as conquest for the era objective, and it skips the unrest phase. Ideally get one with some walls in it. Use the 10 turns to heal and regroup, then declare again and use their walls against them.
- You won't beat the AI to Mausoleum of Theodoric, but Gate of All Nations and Terracotta Army are both very gettable on Immortal; once you have your second city, try for them as your early wonders.

Most importantly, though, accept you won't always get the 12 points. Sometimes the AI will give away a town you were attacking in a peace deal with someone else. Sometimes there won't be enough target cities nearby. Sometimes they'll spam out so many units you can't really progress. So have a plan B; you never want total war, you want to continue developing your cities - create a second one early, and closer to them, and build most of your army there. Keep going for the key buildings and wonders in your capital.

 

[WillK96]

I play on Deity and usually have no problem capturing 1-3 settlements in Antiquity if I've (1) identified the potential early and (2) adequately prepared). I typically build a second commander around turn 50 (after peaceful expansion), then load the second commander up with exclusively siege units. First commander is loaded with Infantry + Ranged (with a few back up units), maybe 15 units total. I think the disconnect from the initial post is that I have never seen a unit take 4 turns of production in mid to late Antiquity (aside from cavalry sometimes). You need to get enough production where you are 1 turning Infantry and 2 turning Siege (and maybe Cav). Anything slower than that severely hampers / entirely prevents playing a bit of Antiquity conquest.

An alternative strategy I have seen is to bait an AI into a war, defend with a few ranged units, then hit them on the counter-attack.

 

[MrRadar]

First problem is units. I believe I seen in discussions here that to reliably conquer a city you need like 10 units. If you build each unit for 4 turns, that's 40 turns your starting city doing nothing else? Maybe a bit less if you also burn all your gold. So, I assume you may want to build some infrastructure first, but doesn't that mean that you'll have an army only closer to the age end?

Second problem is the distance. There are some rare occasions of AIs starting pretty close, but on standard maps you usually have a distance of 2 settlements between your capital cities. So, even if AI settles in your direction, you also need at least one settlement before conquest will start making sense?

You look for and stack different bonuses for your benefit. I'll give example of my current game.

I decided to do some Antiquity warfare, so I chose Continents and Islands map, to have some land area, and paired Bolivar with Persia - strong military traits with support for expansion and economy, awesome traditions.

Then Mementos: Inscribed Bullet for 1 Militaristic attribute, and Scythian Battle Axe for gold from every commander xp - this extra gold does come handy.

My closest neighbours were Rizal Of the Maya, 12 tiles between our capitals, and he did not settle towards me, so we're keeping it neutral; and Lafayette of Aksum, 18 tiles between our capitals, but he settled one town towards me, 12 tiles away, and I settled my three towns in his direction. Close to me was a commercial IP Meroe, which I befriended winning the race with Lafayette, so he got miffed about it and very conveniently denounced me, and later DoWed me.

In the meanwhile, civics wise, I went Discipline for the free commander, Spada for the troops building boost, then Discipline mastery. My unique commander got his first promotions and some respective gold by fighting a hostile IP's units in the north, and got back just in time to repel Lafayette's initial attack. I did not disperse the IP, though, as it was Expansionist one, so I thought it would be better to befriend it.

First celebration came in just in time to stack Kara from Spada for +50% towards building infantry units and +30% towards the same from Despotism government bonus. Infantry units took mostly 1 turn to build.

So it is turn 51 of this standard Deity game, I have 1 city and 3 towns, 2 scouts running about, 1 commander, 10 infantry units and 2 slingers, and my invasion force is 3-4 tiles away from the nearest Lafayette city. He does not have walls yet, it's just the terrain that's a bit tricky, but he should fall without big problems. I have +2 war weariness advantage form Bolivar and militaristic attribute, and Gates of All Nations are 7 turns away, I have hardly seen an AI building it early, so I should be safe here.

By the way for the movement, your commander can speed up the movement for more units than he can pack. Walk 2 tiles out of 3, unpack a unit forward and walk 2 tiles forward, pack a lagger from behind, walk the last tile with the commander. And so on. This is just in case of unobstructed terrain and absence of enemy, but it does help to cross distances faster.

 

[MrRadar]

T77 update.

So with this setup:

Spoiler :

I could take over the whole Lafayette's operation:

Spoiler :

Pax Imperatoria completed:

Spoiler :

Bolivar+Persia feels like cheating, honestly, but probably there are many more such strong combinations:

Spoiler :

Man of the campaign (and remember, with the Scythian Axe memento, every xp point was a gold coin added to the treasury):

Spoiler :

On the same turn 77 Lafayette bowed out, I've completed my second wonder Terracotta Army, after the Gates, giving me my second commander. But I'm a bit challenged in terms of happiness atm, with 4 settlements over the limit, so I have some catching up to do on the civics tree, I also have vast areas in my backyard with plenty of resources to backsettle, so my Antiquity conquests might be over. Or not, I might start something just for pillaging and commander xp purposes. But anyway, here's an example how you may "rig" the game in your favour for early wars.