How do you play tall?

Discussion in 'Community Patch Project' started by kitfox, Aug 1, 2018.

  1. Owlbebach

    Owlbebach Emperor

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    I agree that Tradition is weak now. I'd love it to have more Food bonuses and more happiness bonuses for Tall play. My idea is that tradition cities should grow significantly faster and should get compensate lack of production with more tiles worked.

    Maybe something like simple extra food per city and reduction of Needs per citizen?
     
  2. chicorbeef

    chicorbeef Emperor

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    Really? Not even with Tradition civs like Arabia?
    I will try to follow up with the Tradition game as Arabia (Deity) I have going, I am pretty confident I am going to win the game I have right now in the Renaissance.
    I have some screenshots so maybe I should make a photojournal to showcase my game? I'm not very experienced in making those but I could give it a shot.
     
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  3. Viralvoid

    Viralvoid Warlord

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    Yay, a tradition photojournal :smug::smug:
     
  4. CrazyG

    CrazyG Deity

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    I love Arabia, I've played him to success many time with tradition, just not in the last two months. I have had spectacular failures as tradition with India and Korea recently. Right now Arabia is probably the only civ I'd recommend taking tradition with.

    The opening policy is the worst policy in the game and it drags down your early game drastically. It reminds of progress from like two years ago, where it was strong eventually but had early game culture challenges which made a really questionable choice.

    Also the thing about barbarians running out of the jungle to take away 58 food in one turn when I'm gaining 7 per turn really makes me not want to play tradition.
     
  5. Giza

    Giza Chieftain

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    I also feel tradition was weak for a long time. I decided to experiment with some changes to see if it may help.

    - Justice (Royal Guardhouse): I added: "Gain 5 GG or GA points on kills". This is to help with military supply. This addresses one of my main concerns while playing tall. You really lack military supply to defend. And since Tradition is focused on great people, it fits the theme. It also enables some civs to wage war while choosing tradition. For example, with Japan, you can have trench wars with your neighbors and generate GG/GA and limit your conquering to border cities (which you will immediately raze, of course). A similar strategy can be used with France.

    - Ceremony (Royal Astrologer): I added: "100% faster production of councils and herbalists". This is one of my main problem with Tradition. You give me bonuses to buildings, but I have no production nor gold to build them. So this helps set-up these buildings in your satellite cities and actually benefit from the bonuses. This will probably not help you build your first council in the capital (unless you really delay it, which is not a good idea).

    - Splendor (Palace Garden): I added: "100% faster production of Monuments, Gardens and Baths. Same reason here. This helps build these fast in your cities and benefit from them very early.

    These changes make tradition more "playable", although I still find it much easier to play Progress. Also, I noticed the AI chooses Tradition slightly more often than before (although in my current game, Arabia chose progress). So I humbly offer you these are suggestions to help improve Tradition :)
     
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  6. Gidoza

    Gidoza Emperor

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    I think this is only a "this-patch" thing. At least I hope it is. Surprised there wasn't a hotfix for it.
     
  7. Owlbebach

    Owlbebach Emperor

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    I dislike it because it kills uniqueness of Tradition. The whole idea of Tradition is to be "Tall" which means higher populated. Same thing can be achieved by increasing population of Tradition: more citizen - easier to build.
     
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  8. CrazyG

    CrazyG Deity

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    What does tradition have that helps an empire go tall? It has a % bonus to growth but that's it. The focus on specialists actually can hurt your cities growth. It helps your capital grow but not your other cities.

    If you want to make lots of cities grow taller, you really want progress. The challenge isn't the growing part, that can be done with religion, fealty, unique buildings or even farms. The challenge is staying happy, and progress does so much more for that. The +10% towards buildings and reward for finishing buildings are two game long, high impact effects that help you acquire excellent infrastructure, which is what you need going tall. Progress also rewards citizen births and its happiness policy is much better.

    Tradition can make a huge capital. I thought the idea of tradition was a stronger capital but weaker other cities. This concept is really, really bad at fighting unhappiness though.

    I'm sorry if I'm being really negative, but I LOVE playing tradition and I feel like there have been a million changes in a row that hurt it badly, the most recent being the change to distress (conceptually tradition cities are low production. They don't have a bonus to food either)
     
  9. tu_79

    tu_79 Deity

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    So, it's unhappiness on population what is deterring tall empires. G was looking for this, as he always says that a very small empire should not be winning.
    But we like to have options, so maybe if we ask hard enough, he would let our cities grow taller. I think the nerf to specialists was enough.
     
  10. Dawnpromise

    Dawnpromise Prince

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    The game does heavily favor wide over tall right now. And it actually does present reasonable arguments for why wide works better then tall both in-game and historically. That said Ill also agree that tall empires, or at the very least Tradition based empires feel terrible right now. It's basically become a non-choice for most civs.
     
  11. Legen

    Legen King

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    I'm ok if the game wants you to expand in order to win, with Tradition being the Ancient Era tree that least needs expansion. I just think Tradition is way behind in its ability to expand than it should be, still designed as if meant to not expand at all.
     
  12. FoxOfWar

    FoxOfWar Prince

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    Tradition is not in a completely bad place, but there is definitely a fair amount of dancing around the supply cap and limited production to keep up an army that can even defend your handful of cities. Early game, anyway.

    That, and very often it feels like actually using the extra specialist slots you get from Tradition are a bit of a trap, as they eat a lot into your potential early game food and production if you do unless you got super-lucky with your starting location. I tend to not use the slots at all until I've finished Tradition and gotten the food bonuses there.

    My suggestion would probably be a small bonus to food, or to the amount of food/happiness your capital specialists use up, and secondarily something to help with military supply when going Tradition as you just don't have the population/barrackses/walls to field any. Not talking huge bonuses, minor tweaks if anything.
     

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