How does citizen/building bombardment defense work?

[BTB]

So, I'm in the editor, and I notice the bombardment defense values for citizens and buildings are set to 16... which disagrees with the help file that states that the default values for these things should be 4. It also makes sense because Walls have a bombardment defense value of 8, and I would assume that they should be greater than the default values.

I'm just not quite sure exactly how these values all work together, because the help file is VERY unclear. Here are my questions, as clear as I can state them:

1) I'm assuming that the citizens and building default values are the defense values which are applied only to a town with no Walls. Is this true, or do they apply regardless of improvements and city size?

2) Do the bombardment defense of Walls ADD to those values or REPLACE them?

3) What happens when a city reaches size 7 and can no longer build Walls? Do they automatically gain the bombardment bonus that Walls would have provided, or are they just screwed because they can no longer build Walls?

4) (BONUS QUESTION!) the editor help files seem to indicate that The Great Wall doubles city defenses period, not just those with Walls. This would make some sort of sense, because otherwise a size-6 city with Walls would lose defense once it became size 7 (and thus lost the bonus provided by its Walls). It also makes sense because a size-6 city with no Walls still has no defensive bonus. Am I correct?

EDIT: I'm talking about vanilla Civ 3, by the way. I'm pretty sure that's relevant.

 

[capnvonbaron]

From what you are saying, I wonder if you got the help file for C3C editor.

1. Applies regardless of walls or town/city size, AFAIK.

2. Its just the individual rating of the walls to bombardment. Since its lower than citizens/other buildings, its why the walls are often the first thing to go when you start bombarding the town.

3. They aren't screwed, size 7-12 cities have the defense bonus of a walled <7 pop town whether they have walls or not. If the town had walls, went to a city, and then dropped back down to town status (say because you drafted or whipped out a unit), the walls will come back; they don't just "go away" when the town becomes a city. But you can't build walls when the pop is 7 - 12 because they wouldn't add anything to the city's defense and I guess the game designers assumed the pop wouldn't drop below 7 again.

4. Although the wonder's section in the forums here indicate that what you are saying is correct, I was pretty sure that in vanilla, the Great Wall merely adds the wall function to any town of size 6 or less. Once the town gets to size 7, and/or once you research metallergy, the Great Wall no longer supplies any benefit to towns, even though you can still build walls in any town you want.

Now here's something I just thought of myself, that perhaps someone else can answer...

If I build a city on top of a fortress, would the fortress provide a defense bonus to units in the city??

 

[BTB]

From what you are saying, I wonder if you got the help file for C3C editor.

LOL... nope.

1. Applies regardless of walls or town/city size, AFAIK.

M'kay... I was starting to think along those lines, myself.

2. Its just the individual rating of the walls to bombardment. Since its lower than citizens/other buildings, its why the walls are often the first thing to go when you start bombarding the town.

I was also starting to assume that... which is what I was hoping was the case, since it makes things far less complicated.

3. They aren't screwed, size 7-12 cities have the defense bonus of a walled <7 pop town whether they have walls or not. If the town had walls, went to a city, and then dropped back down to town status (say because you drafted or whipped out a unit), the walls will come back; they don't just "go away" when the town becomes a city. But you can't build walls when the pop is 7 - 12 because they wouldn't add anything to the city's defense and I guess the game designers assumed the pop wouldn't drop below 7 again.

It does bother me that you can't build Walls in a city, but then again I'm doing something about that by adding an upkeep cost to Walls, so that you don't build them unless you need them.

Looking at your sig, I think that you might be interested in the mod I'm working on. It's a rule mod designed specifically for Vanilla civ (I am not fond of the expansions). There's an earlier version of this mod posted on the site, but I wouldn't recommend using it. I've found WAY too many things wrong with it.

If you're interested, let me know and I'll show you what all's in the mod.

4. Although the wonder's section in the forums here indicate that what you are saying is correct, I was pretty sure that in vanilla, the Great Wall merely adds the wall function to any town of size 6 or less. Once the town gets to size 7, and/or once you research metallergy, the Great Wall no longer supplies any benefit to towns, even though you can still build walls in any town you want.

Well, I guess I'll see. For now, I'm letting the Great Wall add Walls AND double their defenses... meaning that it will (in theory) beef up city defenses to 100 for all cities, regardless of size.

Now here's something I just thought of myself, that perhaps someone else can answer...

If I build a city on top of a fortress, would the fortress provide a defense bonus to units in the city??

I don't think you can build a city on a fort... or at least I've never tried.

 

[capnvonbaron]

It does bother me that you can't build Walls in a city, but then again I'm doing something about that by adding an upkeep cost to Walls, so that you don't build them unless you need them.

I almost never build walls anyways, so adding upkeep would give me even LESS incentive to build them If anything, you need to make walls MORE useful. About the only thing I like about walls is the added ZoC around the town, but even that use is limited, since only rarely do enemy AI breach my borders, let alone brush past a walled city.

Looking at your sig, I think that you might be interested in the mod I'm working on. It's a rule mod designed specifically for Vanilla civ (I am not fond of the expansions). If you're interested, let me know and I'll show you what all's in the mod.

Yeah sure, send it along in a PM.

Well, I guess I'll see. For now, I'm letting the Great Wall add Walls AND double their defenses... meaning that it will (in theory) beef up city defenses to 100 for all cities, regardless of size.

After some additional searching, the GW doubles wall defence against barbarians. I don't deal with enough barbs to care, since in most games I play maps with max civs, REXP and REXBF (thats "rapidly expand peacfully" and "by force" ) pretty well, and most empty space if filled by the time barbs come around.

I don't think you can build a city on a fort... or at least I've never tried.

You can build a city anywhere you want (except mountains, of course), but I don't know if the fortress will add anything to city garrison defense bonus.

 

[BTB]

I almost never build walls anyways, so adding upkeep would give me even LESS incentive to build them If anything, you need to make walls MORE useful. About the only thing I like about walls is the added ZoC around the town, but even that use is limited, since only rarely do enemy AI breach my borders, let alone brush past a walled city.

Well, the irony is that city walls (which are generally representative of large, established cities) are really only useful in small border towns that either won't be growing to city status anytime soon, or likely never will.

I really wish that there was a way to fix this that didn't involve screwing with the game's code. The only thing that I could think of is removing the defense bonus for a city/metro... but even then I'm not sure if the game would still allow you to build walls in cities or metros.

Yeah sure, send it along in a PM.

Sent

After some additional searching, the GW doubles wall defence against barbarians. I don't deal with enough barbs to care, since in most games I play maps with max civs, REXP and REXBF (thats "rapidly expand peacfully" and "by force" ) pretty well, and most empty space if filled by the time barbs come around.

Actually, I believe that the barbarian bonus is separate from the city defense bonus, as well as the odd fact that it only seems t6o apply to the city in which the Great Wall was built.

Yeah, I removed that bonus. It seemed ******ed to me >.>

You can build a city anywhere you want (except mountains, of course), but I don't know if the fortress will add anything to city garrison defense bonus.

In that case, I would presume that the city would replace the fortress.