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How does one break out from a one-sided war?

Discussion in 'Civ3 - Strategy & Tips' started by Pacifist, Sep 5, 2005.

  1. Pacifist

    Pacifist Warlord

    Joined:
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    Location:
    Australia
    --version 1.22 C3C

    Has anyone dug themselves out of a one-sided war, such that the AI forms multiple alliances against you? If so, I'd like to know how you accomplished this feat.

    It's not so often that this happens but when it does, I don't want to have to start another game, especially when I've invested alot of time building grande cities (the non-overlapping 21 tile city placement types) :)

    Should I kowtow to everyone and give them all what they want?
    And what should I do about those who won't even talk to me?
    And how do I go about convincing those who are unwilling to ally with me?

    This is how I usually play ...
    • I aim for a decent amount of cities to begin with (wide-spacing, no tile overlaps)
    • My first 2 cities always end-up having granaries usually by the time I have 3 to 4 cities.
    • My first 4 cities always have barracks and city walls
    • The rest of my cities always start building culture improvements first, whether it be a library or temple
    • I try to stay under the government's unit support limit whenever possible
    • I build 1 worker per city whenever I can
    • I keep 1 unit (best defender available) for each city on defence/MP duty
    • I use an archer-type for my 2nd MP when my city grows (don't like using catapults and such for defensive bombardment because when my main defender dies, a catapult gets captured; at least archers get a chance to defend when my main defender gets unlucky)
    • I use 2 warriors (regulars) to start with for exploration
    • I use 1 warrior (veteran) for barbarian hunting to loot for gold
    • I use my king unit (regicide mode) for early exploration but don't go too far away
    • My capital city starts building Wonders when I get a decent amount of cities established. My 2nd city acts as an optional Wonder builder.
    • The first 4 cities are veteran unit trainers when not making workers or settlers.
    • Other cities make workers, settlers and catapults.
    • My outer cities eventually get city walls for extra defense
    • I build forts on top of strategic resources (whether or not its in my borders) and station my best defender on it.
    • I usually try to get the techs that give me spearman and archer first if I meet other civs too early, otherwise I research the techs that give me granaries/temples first. My research pattern after is based on Wonder building. I go for techs that allow me to build Wonders :)
    • And I never trade techs that have Wonders until I've already built it.

    Hints please! Keep in mind, my games use builder strategies (my crappy style compared to most veteran builder strategies out there :p )

    These are the game settings that I like to play at ...
    • regent level
    • standard map size
    • level 3 barbarians (the one after sedentary, I forgot what it's called)
    • max opponents (all random)
    • customized default option settings
      • regicide "on"
      • wonder victory "off"
      • conquest victory "off"
      • culture grouping "off"
    I like to play with different civs every game too

    Hopefully I've given you everything you need to know about my games so that you can give me a solution to my question (repeated down here for your convenience) ...

    "Has anyone dug themselves out of a one-sided war, such that the AI forms multiple alliances against you? If so, I'd like to know how you accomplished this feat."

    Thanks in advance!

    --version 1.22 C3C

    -Pacifist-
    "Learn as if you were going to live forever. Live as if you were going to die tomorrow -Mahatma Gandhi"
     
  2. Fried Egg

    Fried Egg Prince

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    Opponents that refuse to speak to you right now will do so in a few turns once they've "Cooled off" a little.

    The best way to break such multiple AI alliances against you is to have such a strong military that you can repulse the invaders and take the battle to them. However, failing that, you will just have to hold on until they are willing to talk and then offer them whatever it takes to settle for peace.
     
  3. Choffy

    Choffy One more turn

    Joined:
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    Location:
    Continents 80% water
    AIs that start fighting against you won't speak to you before 4/5 turns (don't know the rule).
    Once you have one ready to speak to you, negotiate peace
    + gold per turn deal to avoid them start war against you soon (even their known map for 1 gpt per turn).
    + Military salliance against another one (RPP might be needed to facilitate the deal). If possible find an AI with already existing military alliances so that it can cascade into other wars.

    When you have are fighting against several AIs, you should try to focus on one and grab it 2/3 cities. it should make peace soon. Try to withstand the other AIs.
     
  4. namliaM

    namliaM Deity

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    Buy them, enough gold/techs/resources (iron/horses/lux) will allways do the trick, tho you may not be willing to pay "enough"

    Try overlapping at least 6-8 tiles per town, you will find it much benificial.
    6-8 tiles is cutting off the corners of your workable area...
    if they have food boni yes, otherwise dont bother... Preferably they should be on Rivers too. (or lakes)
    Skip the walls, use the shield to do something "productive" like a Lib or Market.
    Skip temples... Only build libs if your city is not going to be 90% corrupt.
    Overlapping will avoid you having to use
    Dont worry about it, if you go over it. Simply go to war and lose the access units.
    this will help 2 ways.
    1) Lower unit count
    2) Up city count (thus unit support)
    Thats good
    Skip the defenders. Your letting the war come to you. Take the war to them. Cats and (fast) attackers and just a couple of defenders on the front line... No need to defend your inner cities.
    "Lots" of defenders and keeping below unit support = low offensive power.
    AI fear Offensive units much more then defensive. Having more Offinsive power will:
    1) Keep them from declaring in the first place
    2) Make it harder for them to get allies (if any)
    3) Make you take it to them instead of having them come to you.
    MP is fine (for DEPOTISM) or in an "Allways war" game when you go with Monarchy. Republic = NO MP. Go for Republic and loose the MPs.

    early scouting/ lots of contact is good. Use any and all (vet) offensive units for Barb hunting. Try to promote them to Elites, all good.
    Dunno, dont play Regicide...

    Dont build wonders (maybe 1 or 2, like ToE), simply capture them...
    Given the choice Pyramids (400 shields) or 20 archers?! What would you pick?
    With the 20 archers you can take the entire civ that build the damned thing to start with.
    Any city should be building something usefull:
    - Workers
    - Settlers
    - Vet units
    - Catapults
    - Libs (and a like)
    Dont limit vet units to 4 cities, your "usable core" is much bigger than 4 cities. It should be atleast 8 or so.... Sure not in the first 2 turns after beeing build. But in republic with a courthouse... perfectly usable... In particular with the FP build....
    Again skip the walls, unless that one city is under heavy attack and/or its a "allways war" game
    Within your boundries dont bother (Maybe on the border if that is your only Iron resource). Outside your border is no good anyway....
    Again take the war to them, dont let them get near that resource and you save yourself a defender for life.
    Wonder addiction allert!!!!
    Monditory: Must play the next 2 games without ever building 1 wonder!
    No kidding! Research path should be toward a government ASAP. Get out of depotism.
    You have C3C so go for Alpha (if you have it allready all the better)=> Writing => Code of Law => Philosophy and take Republic as your free tech.
    Did you know you get a free tech with Philo if your the first to know it?!

    Trade trade trade. Again dont build the wonders!

    Manditory: Play another 2 games without wonders!

    You dont need to war, but you need to look like you can bite...
    And if they dare to challenge you... You must take it to them! and take some more property and/or wonders.

    I play simular settings exept Emperor
    Regicide off and conquest on

    there is no "real" solution... or a standard solution...
    Put it all together and win!

    1) Dont get there
    2) Take the war to them
    3) Dont get in a 2 sided war. If you can keep the enimy on 1 side its easier
    4) Get them in trouble (ally their opposite neighbour against them.

    Hope all that helps a little....
    Good luck...

    Oh, just a reminder: YOU MUST play 4 games in a row without building a wonder. (Maybe allow for Apollo or UN, for them victories) or win by domination/conquest, but your a builder (like I was :satan: thats WAS).

    Also you must play these games if you dont win earlier atleast untill the modern age! You cannot abandon them... Win or lose that doesnt much matter but finish them....

    P.S.
    Sorry for:
    • The long post
    • The lecture
    • The Penalty games
    Tho you did kindoff ask for it....
     
  5. Dreadnought

    Dreadnought Deity

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    Get MPP with the AI. If you can't yet, build lots of forts on the border, pref. on mountains/hills, occupy them with spears/pikes/whatever and let the slaughter begin!

    ;)
     
  6. Andronicus

    Andronicus Emperor

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    Sounds like you wish to play to your name.
    Though the game heavily favours a military approach it is possible to play as a pacifist.
    The important thing to prevent the AI stomping on you is to have an offense the AI respects - even if you dont intend to use it. Unfortunately your decision not to trade but with-hold techs makes the AI very narky. I suggest if you wish to succeed on higher levels yet maintain a pacifist builder style game you need to 1) trade, trade, trade 2) build enough offensive units to discourage aggresive AI and 3) as namliaM says above - get over your wonder addiction - they are a luxury you will not be able to build youself on higher levels (but should you decide to occasionally allow yourself some aggression - the nice AI may build some for you).
    If you do find yourself at war with a stronger civ immediately ally the aggresors neighbours forcing them to fight on 2 fronts. Dont worry too much about civs on another continent if they take your opponents side - they will be unlikely to join the action and you have a good chance of a beneficial peace treaty later. With careful planning of whom to ally you should be able to let the others fight while you just defend your own area from incursions, then at the end of the war get bonuses in peace deal as well as settling openings from destroyed cities.
     
  7. namliaM

    namliaM Deity

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    And here I was trying to talk him/her out of that habit of building defenders and Forts!

    I cant even remember what a fort looks like...
     
  8. Fried Egg

    Fried Egg Prince

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    There's nothing wrong with playing a defensive game. Waging a defensive war is a lot cheaper than waging an offensive war. And while you're directing most of your resources into scientific research and infrastructure development, you're enemy is washing your city walls with the blood of it's soldiers, and pouring resources down the drain as a result.

    If you aren't going for a conquest of domination victory, playing defensively is a valid strategy. Although, what I find can change things is if you're lacking key strategic resources or have hardly any luxuries. Sometimes I'm forced to go to war to secure them...
     
  9. DaveMcW

    DaveMcW Deity

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    Not if your border is a thousand miles long...
     
  10. Andronicus

    Andronicus Emperor

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    But if your goal is to avoid that nasty bully AI from attacking you in the first place you need to gain its respect - the AI respects an offensive force more than a defensive force.

    So rather than waging that defensive war you may remain at peace or if you are attacked other civs are more happy to take your side if your military is more powerful.
     
  11. WackenOpenAir

    WackenOpenAir Deity

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    Have an army capable of destroying them :D
     
  12. SJ Frank

    SJ Frank Spamalot Co-court

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    Fighting a defensive war doesn't mean you have to use defensive units.

    Playing defensively means you never leave your territory. What's the advantage in that? Well, in your territory, you can use the roads, and your enemy can't. In your territory, your longbowmen walks at the same speed as enemy cavs, and your cavs -- well, they can cover a border that's a thousand miles long ;)

    Because of your mobility advantage, your can always concentrate your troops on the "hot spots". In other word, whenever you fight a battle, you will have a numerical advantage. It allows you to use the military strategy of "bring over-whelming force". That's the advantage of playing defensively.

    Now, if you use this type of defensive strategy, then you'll need offensive troops, especially mobile offensive troops, instead of defensive troops. The whole idea is to destroy the enemy in the fields, before they even get a chance to attack your cities. Catapults and artilleries are useful too, because they help you lower casulty rate even further.
     
  13. WackenOpenAir

    WackenOpenAir Deity

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    very true, and of course, you can also do a little counterattack with these offensive units ;)
     
  14. BobCW

    BobCW Warlord

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    I just had my first Emperor win two nights ago. My biggest surprise was finding that it made much, much more sense to build MI instead of Pikes... at least until cavs came around. Then it was back to high defense units.
     
  15. WackenOpenAir

    WackenOpenAir Deity

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    when cavs around, you should be building those of course :)
     
  16. MRick

    MRick Warlord

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    About the gang attack :
    I was victim of this kind of war once, and barely survived.

    So now, when an impressive AI declares war on me, I immediatly go and cut the grass under his feet :
    I make as much alliances against him as I can.
    I even do alliances with far away civs, if they are wealthy, strong, or technologically advanced, because they will often make alliances themselves against our common ennemy.

    Several time, I was running a builder type of game, and the biggest strongest agressive Civ (Aztecs, Germans etc...) attacked me, and they always regreted that. Most of the time they end up at war with every one else on Earth !

    Even if i play pacifist builder and defensivly (with offensive units as SJ Franck said), the powerfull bully is finally put down on his knees but the big number of lesser civs attacking him.
     
  17. Choffy

    Choffy One more turn

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    Even if you are playing defensive war, you can
    - use of few units to cut roads on strategic or luxury AI ressources
    - settle on some mountains with Spearmen / pikemen to see what is coming. Moreover dumb AIs often do suicide attacks on these units. You can also add some catapults to redline AI units before their attack.
     
  18. BobCW

    BobCW Warlord

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    Well, yeah, but I'm not going to use cavs for defense. Too big an investment to lose to a sneak attack. Counterattacks, sure, but the range of enemy cavs means that I can't always attack them before they can hit my cities.
     
  19. Pacifist

    Pacifist Warlord

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    @namliaM
    :lol: The reason I put all that detail is so that I wouldn't have to come back here and answer questions like ...
    "How do get into that situation in the first place"; or
    "Are you focusing on city building first?"; or
    "Are you building Wonders? If you are don't do it and just build units, units, units"
    and I'm sure many other more questions like that :)

    ... and I made a mistake with my game preferences: I meant "domination victory off", not conquest

    @everyone
    I know all about Wonder addiction. I've read the article
    It's not like I'm building it in all cities. I've reserved TWO cities maximum for building Wonders
    I'm not addicted, promise ... err ... even if my research pattern looks like I'm addicted, I'm really not :)
    I'm really not aiming for a win, otherwise I wouldn't be Wonder building - that's why I've turned off domination victory :)
    Winning by UN or space race or cultural is a bonus for me
    I just want to reach 2050 (last turn?) with lots of nice looking cities and hopefully win by score :p

    As for fortresses, I've always found uses for it. They're not as useless as most of you make it out to be :)

    Anyway, when I'm playing, I can pretty much take all the beating from one or two AI's without losing a single city without ever leaving my borders. I move all my offensive units to where they're needed and pick off all the spearman that loves to pillage as well as attack unit stacks just outside cities so they don't open themselves to being counter-attacked. I hardly ever attack single offensive units and just let them attack my cities, where my archer and spearman go on a double-team defending spree :)
    All my cities (any era) uses defensive bombard/best defender combo per city. All my other units are mostly offensive unit stacks, with an archer-type in the mix, just in case they get attacked and move around where they are needed the most. I divide the stacks if I have to defend more than one side of my borders.

    But when it comes to multiple alliances (more than 2 AI's -vs- me), I'm dead :)
    I have to spread my forces really carefully and sometimes, when I least expect it, they sail units in my inner borders while my forces are on the outer borders attacking and defending.

    Of course I do everything I can to prevent this from happening but sometimes it happens anyway. Hence my plea for help :)

    I think you all have given me a good overall picture, so thanks!
    I will just give them all my spare resources and all the tech they want so they'll leave me in peace and try to wait out those who won't speak to me :)

    Appreciate all the help!

    -Pacifist-
    "War does not determine who is right - only who is left" -B.R.
     
  20. Traitorfish

    Traitorfish The Tighnahulish Kid

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    Sort of on-topic question:
    WHen fighting a defensive war, is it best to defend your borders, or retreat to defend the bigger, more important cities further into your empire?
     

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