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How does war weariness work?

Discussion in 'Civ3 Strategy Articles' started by Oystein, Aug 16, 2003.

  1. Oystein

    Oystein Chieftain

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    The study of war weariness goes on. I will thank Bamspeedy and DaveMcW (any other?) for their research, it really helped.

    General:
    We measure war weariness with wwp (war weariness point). Each civ have one wwp number against each of the other civs.

    The different levels of war weariness:
    Code:
    Level   wwp
     -1:     -   0   wh (war happiness)
      0:   0 -  30   normal, no effect
      1:  31 -  60      
      2:  61 -  90
      3:  91 - 120
      4: 121 -
    Effect of ww in war:

    All government:
    Level -1: 25% happy people

    Republic:
    Level 1: 25% unhappy people
    Level 2: 50% unhappy people
    Level 3: 50% unhappy people
    Level 4: 100% unhappy people

    Democracy:
    Level 1: 50% unhappy people
    Level 2: 100% unhappy people
    Level 3: Revolt

    Number of unhappy people is round down. The number from each civ is added together and subtract 25% for police station and 1 for US (Universal Sufferage). The total number of unhappy citizen from ww can not exceed number of citizen.

    War happiness is calculated independent in the same way. (No effect of improvments)
    War happiness from several enemies could really help

    Calculations of wwp:
    All starts at 0.
    Subtract 30 wwp if the AI attacks you, except when AI is provoked by:
    - use of nuclear weapons
    - failed spy mission
    Anything else? Please tell me if you find something.

    Add 1 wwp if you have units in enemys territory when in war. (In beginning of the turn)

    The following describes the effect for a human:
    Add 1 wwp for each
    - lost unit without defence value
    - improvment pillage/bombed
    - unit that are bombard down to 1 hp
    Add 2 wwp when a human attacker is defeated
    Add 2 wwp when a unit with defence value is attacked. (Even if you win)
    Add 16 wwp when a size 1 city is captured 17 wwp for bigger cities.
    What if your cities get bombed?
    There is a bug for these penalties. For a human-AI battle, the AI gets the same penalty as the human (he gets penalty for taking human cities, but not for losing his own). For an AI-AI war both gets the penalty the first AI should have. There seems to be no problem with human-human battles.

    Subtract 1 wwp if level >= 1, no enemy inside your territory and no units in enemys territory.
    Subtract 1/20 of current wwp each turn in peace (round up)

    Assume you sign peace when you just have gotten 100% ww in republic (121wwp) and keep out of his territory. Then you will lose 8 wwp the first turn, 7wwp the next. It will take 19 turns to get down to level 0, and 43 turn until the war is totally forgotten.

    For each turn you stay in enemy territory, or he stays in yours, add one turn. Unless the wwp is reduced to 30, or you are lucky with roundings.


    List of turns and wwp
    Turn 0- 1 reduction by 8: 121, 113
    Turn 2- 3 reduction by 7: 106, 99
    Turn 4- 7 reduction by 6: 93, 87, 81, 75
    Turn 8-10 reduction by 5: 70, 65, 60
    Turn 11-15 reduction by 4: 56, 52, 48, 44, 40
    Turn 16-19 reduction by 3: 37, 34, 31, 28
    Turn 20-23 reduction by 2: 26, 24, 22, 20
    Turn 24-43 reduction by 1: 19, 18, 17, 16, 15, 14, 13, 12, 11, 10, 9, 8, 7, 6, 5, 4, 3, 2, 1, 0

    EDIT: Added info of how the AI gets wwp. Corrected some of the number of wwp given and the descriptions of when you get 1 wwp subtracted.
     
  2. MadScot

    MadScot Brandy's back!

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    Oystein

    There were a couple of threads in the Strategy & Tips Forum on this a while ago. Some of it corresponds to your info, some contradicts.

    Major areas of disagreement:

    * WW is totally forgotten after 20 turns of peace, and is totally reinstated if war starts before then. Your info states that it decays gradually instead.

    * No way to reduce wwp total according to thread, you have found a way

    * WWP added together for calculating effect, while you imply the effects are independently calculated

    Here's a summary of those threads:newer thread
    older thread

    However it sounds like you've done quite a bit of research into this so I would not automatically assume the 'other' info were more accurate.

    edit: added link and summary of CFC thread on WW
     
  3. Qitai

    Qitai .

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    This seems to have some details that the other thread do not have.
     
  4. Qitai

    Qitai .

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    Top.

    I think this thread deserve more attention since it seems much more comprehensive than Bamspeedy's research. In fact, it deserve to be moved to the strategy article forum.
     
  5. Zwingli

    Zwingli Chieftain

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    This explains why defending at chokepoints or landing sites always seems to crank up weariness to such a large degree. I remember one particular instance where I fended off ~100 obsolete attack units in one turn at a chokepoint with minimal losses, but ended up with a fully weary Republic by the next turn.
     
  6. alexman

    alexman Chieftain

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    Thank you Oystein. I'm not sure how much of your work was based on Bamspeedy's and DaveMcW's tests, but it is a very complete study. Why is this thread still not in the Strategy Articles forum? :confused:

    Edit: Any idea how WW is affected in MP?
     
  7. Hygro

    Hygro soundcloud.com/hygro/

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    d-most important info since i understood who the city screen worked in civ2
     
  8. Oystein

    Oystein Chieftain

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    I think I have discovered a bug. It looks like both AI and the human gets wwp when the AI takes a city, but none effect when a human takes an AI city.

    I have not PTW, so I can not check how this works for multiplayer.
     
  9. Grille

    Grille panel insect

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    So the AI gets the same penalty of 15(17) wwp as well?
    Or is the amount lower?

    Just to make it clear, does an AI civ get that penalty when taking another AI city?

    No wonder they switch from demo that fast...
     
  10. Oystein

    Oystein Chieftain

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    Yes, the AI get the same penalty. We both lost 17wwp pr city (all city without wonder, so I have to correct my original post when I checked this better)

    None of the AI get the penalty when one AI capture a AI city.

    I am going to test more tomorrow. I have figured out where wwp is stored in the savefile, so testing is much easier now.
     
  11. Grille

    Grille panel insect

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    Just a wild speculation: maybe citizens nationality plays a role, or the culture status (expansion level...) of a city (so you had possibly made that assumption with wonders).

    Anyways, I'm looking forward for the test.:goodjob::)
     
  12. Oystein

    Oystein Chieftain

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    It looks like I got fouled be the reduction of wwp. I did not know excactly how it worked, so I made some wrong conclusions. I hope I have corrected all mistakes. Any comments are welcome.

    Original post is updated.
     
  13. Bamspeedy

    Bamspeedy We'll dig up the road!

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    So are you saying that if 2 AI are fighting each other, then they never get any war weariness? If so, then something is wrong with your game, but not mine.

    In my current game as the French, I had Egypt fight other civs. For awhile, egypt was fighting 3 other AI. I just checked her cities and she is in Republic and experiencing war weariness really bad (I have never fought her). With 1 luxury, temple, cathedral, JS bach's, Sistine, and colluseum her 12 citizens in Thebes are all content (none are happy) with some entertainers.

    Perhaps the situation is that since I am in an alliance with her, she gets the ww penalties? Or the fact that the war was initiated by me?

    Edit: I just saw this:

    So is that the ONLY way the AI gets ww when in war with another AI?

    P.S. I have saved games if you want to look at them.
     
  14. Oystein

    Oystein Chieftain

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    I just said I never SEEN any of those penalties:) I have to admit my AI-AI war research was rather limited. But now, more testing is done.

    The penalty for staying in enemies teritory, and bonus when enemy declear war is the same for all.

    But for the rest I think the playing order determins how the penalty is given. In an AI-AI war the first player gets penalties as a human, the second gets penlties as an AI in an human-AI war.

    Now I really starts to worry how this affects mp-games. Could someone test that please? (It is a bit late to by PTW now when conquest is just around the corner) Just make a scenario where a human player can capture at least 2 cities of a player with earlier playingturn. Let him start with republic and see if he gets ww the next turn.

    Is there a way to let an AI player start in vanilla civ?
     
  15. Dr. Dr. Doktor

    Dr. Dr. Doktor Chieftain

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    How will you differentiate between drafting and war weariness. I presume you can not see that from espionage?

    However I would guess that Bamspeedys test was made before Egypt discovered nationalism?
     
  16. Bamspeedy

    Bamspeedy We'll dig up the road!

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    Yes, in my game it is well before nationalism.

    Oystein probably did his tests before the AI had nationalism, too. I think you 'might' be able to see the reasons for unhappiness of an AI if you use the Debug mode. And Oystein said he found where the WW data is stored in the save files.
     
  17. binyo66

    binyo66 Chieftain

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    Quote from MadScott:
    Ending War Weariness
    You need to be at peace with that particular civ for 20 consecutive turns, before the WW is completely forgotten; if you resume war with that civ within 20 turns your previous WWP total is reinstated.
    -----------------
    Here the situation as a Roman Democracy, and just finish rep. part science (which only give me to upgrade to transports):
    Turn 1. My ally UK been attacked by GR and Iraq, so I've been forced to declared war to Iraq and GR (which most of them were on main island).
    Turn 2. The next step was to destroy 3 iraq cities which was on the same small island with me. This was done.
    Turn 3. At this point, I cleared up some vessels around my islands to make sure that they were not going to bombard my main island.
    In the same time, I sent cavalries (around 40 of them) aboard, which took 2 round to go to main islands.
    Turn 5. I just landed next to Iraq Capital Salamanca.
    Turn 6 and 7. I took 2 Iraq cities including the Capital. At the end of this turn Iraq request for peace, which I refused to ack. their envoy.
    Up to this point, I realized that many ww was quite high, but still could be handle since I have temple, cathedral in all cities and traded luxuries with UK and Aztec.
    Turn 8...12, I destroyed 3 GR cities, and GR also asked for peace, which I turned down. As the result, the next turn, most of my cities including my own capital was in chaos. That was enough. I reload the game until turn 7. But at this time I accepted peace with Iraq (the next turn we would at war again since Iraq was still attacking UK. But I checked here, my ww was still low, and It didn't seem to hurt my rep).
    Then I took again GR cities, GR asked peace which I accepted it. Unlike Iraq, GR didn't bother to attack UK, in 2 turns GR peaced UK. At this point, UK, Aztec, and I had war with Iraq, and I realized my ww was still low, even until around another 10 turns before Iraq been destroyed.
    So the point here is:

    Under democracy, when your enemies asked peace, you should make peace with them, otherwise your ww would be very high. If the next turn you are still at war with him (because of the ma), it wont increase your ww.
     
  18. Grille

    Grille panel insect

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    Welcome to CFC, binyo66!

    While I agree that demo is bad during war, I think your game fits to the ww rules (as far as they are at least known by now).
    I guess that you reached level 1 (50% unhappy under demo) pretty fast (no arch enemy [?] and MPP triggered war declaration). That level might have been still acceptable due to luxs deals etc.
    Then 40 cavs being shipped to enemy territory have at least a great potential to reach level 2 (100%! unhappy) in short time. I guess you reached that level around turn 8-12.
    But AFAIK wwp are cumulative for each civ. And after reloading, you simply missed the "GR" wwp contribution. Thus I doubt that refusing their envoy increases ww. Of course, I am just guessing (that thing may be worth a test as well). I think the missing attacks from "GR" just avoided ww level 2 during turns 8-12.

    Your rep, however, is defintively shot if you signed peace w/ Iraq and their new attack on your ally forced you to re-declare war on them. Try to negotiate with a neutral civ that has actually contact to Iraq: they'll say "we kow what you did to Iraq" or such similar if you try to put some gpt/resource on your side of the table (note: this is NOT true for peace [re-]negotiations, though!!).

    Your ally will not be aware of that rep hit as long as he's also at war with the civ you've betrayed (by breaking the peace treaty).
     
  19. binyo66

    binyo66 Chieftain

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    Thx Grille,

    The idea to reloading and making peace came after I checked my capital rome while it was in chaos. Many of my own citizens say, "Give peace a chance". And others says like "too crowded."

    At that game, after beating Iraq, somehow US attacked UK and forced me to declare war to US. But this time, I used tanks and didn't need the transports.
    The interesting parts in US war were
    1. US never asked for peace even untill the last city been taken.
    (in average I took every turns 2-4 US cities) And none of my cities including the new my US city which I just took was in chaos (and usually I just dump a lot of cavs to settle with US citizens, and let them starved, while my healthty tanks kept moving to a new target). I think since US didn't ask for peace, my citizen was still happy, anyway, US attack my ally UK first. Actually, during US war, I could broke up my mpp with UK (it was expired anyway), but I'm not sure if it would hit my rep or not during the war.
    2. US didn't ask GR to ally against UK and me. I think, because GR made peace with me during GR/Iraq again UK and me (well I am not sure).
     
  20. Oystein

    Oystein Chieftain

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    binyo66:
    As I understad it, you never went to war against GR after you reloaded. I think you had 50% ww from both GR and Iraq. Your short peace with Iraq made no difference. It is because of the peace with GR your ww are less than the first time.

    Grille:
    wwp are kept for each civ. The effect is cumultativ. If you are in war with 30 civs each with 29wwp, you still got no ww. But 2 civs with 30wwp gives 2*50% ww for democracy.

    I have tested rejecting peace offer/envoy. I could not see any effect.
     

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