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How Far Will the Woke Mob Go?

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by Kaitzilla, Jun 11, 2020.

  1. Gorbles

    Gorbles Load Balanced

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    As usual Manfred, it's good fun to see what you attempt to nitpick, and what glaring assumptions you choose not to. Keep on rocking on :)

    Weirdly, the article makes no mention of a mob, concerned parents, or generally anybody but the school's actions. What about this is "woke", considering that opposition to Trump is hardly solely the exclusive domain of progressives?
     
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  2. Patine

    Patine Deity

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    Because you have shown, not just with me, but the many others, the self-appointed judge of what everyone must have a priority of responding to in posts and not responding to immediately, and making presumptuous moral indictments based on your views therein. It really gets tiresome, you know. Especially from someone always running down others' posting habits and styles from such a self-righteous, high-horse way viewpoint.
     
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  3. Gorbles

    Gorbles Load Balanced

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    This is my new favourite post reference for self-awareness in Off Topic, cheers!
     
  4. Patine

    Patine Deity

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    "There is none so blind as he who will not see," Jesus Christ
     
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  5. TheMeInTeam

    TheMeInTeam Top Logic

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    School's actions are vile in this context and their reasoning is "woke" in the pejorative sense. He had wrongthink so he got fired.
     
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  6. cardgame

    cardgame Obsessively Opposed to the Typical

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    correlation does not imply causation
     
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  7. TheMeInTeam

    TheMeInTeam Top Logic

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    We're talking about a single data point, but nice try.
     
  8. El_Machinae

    El_Machinae Colour vision since 2018 Retired Moderator

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    The information on the firing is completely one-sided, because the school has all of the power to do the firing and none of the transparency.

    The woke mob really should expressing more concern about such a blatant abuse of power by the school. The teacher insists that he knows the reason he was fired, and they deny it. You would think by him taking his case to the media, he's waving his right to privacy, and the school should just be allowed to say why they fired him.

    This is a reason why so many professionals have a social media presence that is anonymous from their work-life.
     
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  9. Lexicus

    Lexicus Deity

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    https://www.insider.com/report-detention-centers-use-disinfectant-causing-bleeding-and-pain-2020-6
    https://www.nytimes.com/2019/02/27/us/immigrant-children-sexual-abuse.html

    What word would you use to describe these conditions?

    Here's a doctor who toured some of these camps actually using the word "torture":
    https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/doc...ies/story?id=63879031&cid=social_twitter_abcn

    But I suppose you, being the mighty Manfred Belheim, can clearly make a better judgment than hers from behind your keyboard?
     
    Last edited: Jul 29, 2020
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  10. Patine

    Patine Deity

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    Short-term victories completely cloud long-term view of consequences in such emotion-driven mass socio-political movements, whether they're left-wing or right-wing. They constantly shoot themselves in the foot to take their boots off at the door.
     
  11. Gorbles

    Gorbles Load Balanced

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    @El_Machinae - sounds like a good topic for another thread then! We've already done worker protections once in here, and that was to do with the framing of an actual "mob" putting the pressure on.

    This didn't happen here, as such it's completely reductive to draw a comparison between the school and any "woke mob'. Especially coming from an individual who is normally very precise on definitions. I wouldn't mind if there wasn't at the same time endless ongoing pedantic arguments about how exactly Nazi someone has to be to be called a Nazi. But we can't have those, and then this massive hole of a definition of "woke mob" meaning whatever the writer wants it to mean at the time :)

    As much as each thread is its own thing, there has to be some kind of consistency on what to expect from a specific issue. Nobody would get anywhere otherwise.

    Nothing about this has anything to do with a woke mob. I thought this was going to be what TF and I went over earlier in the thread; public pressure leading a school to do something. It isn't. It's not that at all. There is no "mob", and so your claim fails the very basic standard you normally impose on anyone elses' claims.

    Besides, the article is what the person is alleging. You should also know better than to repeat such a thing uncritically - regardless of the lack of transparency from the school. Maybe you're predisposed to studying siding with a worker against an institution. It's hard to tell when you kneejerk blame a non-existent "woke mob".

    Conservatives can be against Trump too. Your desire to pin this on something there is literally no evidence for is really something.
     
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  12. El_Machinae

    El_Machinae Colour vision since 2018 Retired Moderator

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    If you want to call it reductive, meh. "Employers acting behind the veil of secrecy to punish based on political expression" will be just as 'mob' as 'mob'. But yeah, if it's not 'mob' enough, then that's fine.
    I get worried how much people are willing to throw people under the bus as 'undesirables' here. There's collateral and then there's callousness.

    Totally agree that being anti-Trump isn't necessarily progressive. But punishing someone for supporting Trump is partisan and anti-liberal. In this case, we don't know why the school did what they did. So, all we know is the claim that they're anti-liberal.
     
  13. Gorbles

    Gorbles Load Balanced

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    I'll absolutely call it reductive, because it is. The "woke mob" is a particular phrase (of conservative origin) in the first place, you don't need to defend it being redefined to suit an institution. We don't call it a "conservative mob" when a woman is fired for alleging sexual misconduct against her CEO (completely hypothetical, but obviously an easily sourced, example).

    I'm not defending the school's actions. I'm not throwing anyone under the bus. I'm taking issue with TMIT being extremely flexible with his definitions just because he wanted a shallow jab at . . . I dunno. "wokeness" in general.
     
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  14. El_Machinae

    El_Machinae Colour vision since 2018 Retired Moderator

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    When the woman gets fired, would you use it as an example of 'the Patriarchy', though? It's certainly some type of mass zeitgeist that would make her easy to fire.

    Anyway, I get the point. The 'mob' necessitates some type of outcry actually being present, rather than an institution merely being 'proactive'.

    What's missing in this case would then be whether it was a nosy HR department monitoring his feed, a busybody fellow staff member, or a member of the 'concerned' public raising a stink. The last of those would be 'mob', I guess.
     
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  15. Gorbles

    Gorbles Load Balanced

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    Or there could actually be another reason for his dismissal. Doesn't make it any better for him (not for the last time in this thread, UBI would go a long way to revolving the power imbalance in situations like this), but we can't discount it.

    As has been mentioned in this thread (I think, I could be getting them crossed), a school (or some other body) firing someone for their opinions happens across the ideological spectrum. That's another reason why I found the kneejerk blame of a "woke mob" rather silly (not your post, to be clear).

    A quick bit on "the patriarchy" - that's a systemic thing. Intangible, even. You see symptoms of it, but it's not something concrete like a group of progressives on Twitter, or a crowd of protestors, or some anti-Trump person devoted to trying to get people fired. Conceptually, it's quite a different thing.
     
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  16. Lexicus

    Lexicus Deity

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    You are making the mistake of taking the teacher at his word. All you have is his side of the story. Right-wing media are also the only ones running this story at the moment, and all their stories provide only the perspective of the fired teacher with no other real information given.

    I'm not saying he's lying, but I am saying taking all this at face value is probably not the best idea.

    And tbh him saying that the schools should reopen in-person may be worth firing him given that it is basically equivalent to saying that a certain number of students and teachers at the school should die. If some teacher announced publicly "we should kill a small, random number of people at this school" I would be surprised if they faced no consequences.
     
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  17. El_Machinae

    El_Machinae Colour vision since 2018 Retired Moderator

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    I'm not, but the posts became more sloppy. I was breaking down the various forms that the over-reach could have happened if it was about the actual tweeting. Earlier on I mentioned that he probably has effectively waived his rights to privacy, since all the school is allowed to say is "it wasn't that". But I also don't want to trust any institution that mandates secrecy in their policies. The last thing you want is institutions that CAN fire for nebulous reasons and no accountability.

    So, not really giving him the benefit of the doubt. Just not giving it to the group that says "nuh uh", and only that.

    Reframing his position on school opening as 'effectively being for people dying', and then justifying it for firing would be fundamentally illiberal, tbh. I know that we want to live in a world where everyone who disagrees with us on difficult questions is fired, but you don't want to live in a world where that power exists.
     
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  18. TheMeInTeam

    TheMeInTeam Top Logic

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    The better refutation is one you mentioned earlier, that there is no apparent direct external pressure in this case. I accept that refutation. The firing as-presented is unfair and unjustified, but not an example of a woke mob firing.

    The timing is awfully convenient if not over the tweet. Normally you don't see school teachers fired outright in the middle of summer.

    That would qualify yes, but I don't see any evidence of it so I was incorrect to label this woke mob absent that evidence. The tweet itself was innocuous, suggesting perhaps the motivation in this case was bad blood/personal while using whatever was available as even shaky pretense.

    Both illiberal and unfair. It's unfortunately happening on a wide scale though. YouTube is still banning actual doctors, including a recent summit, from discussing information regardless of evidence if it makes the "wrong conclusions".
     
  19. El_Machinae

    El_Machinae Colour vision since 2018 Retired Moderator

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    There is no real momentum of discussing 'fair'. People have different instincts there. Not all rules can be 'fair', since we're balancing different needs/wants in a society that cannot agree on whether water expands as it warms.
     
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  20. Estebonrober

    Estebonrober Deity

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    The overlap of people I have problems with on certain topics with this topic is dramatic btw.

    I do not think he should be fired for publicly support re-opening schools or for supporting Trump publicly as long as the social media usage is permitted within the rules for his employment. There needs to be a way to be clear that you do not represent your employer and I think we need a federal regulation delineating this issue. Or something, jsut thinking out loud honestly. I do not have a perfect answer for this issue.

    the woke mob take is jsut wah wahwah culture war outrage nonsense. Within my lifetime saying you support gay rights was grounds for firing, the same people outraged by this story was largely fine with that one in my anecdotal experience.
     

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