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How far would you dismantle 'PC (politically correct) culture'?

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by aelf, Jun 16, 2018.

  1. luiz

    luiz Trendy Revolutionary

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    You seem to have completely missed the point of your own thread.

    Christians in America may demand "protection", but the people that advocate political correctness aren't giving it, are they? Christians are mercilessly criticized there for their supposed homophobia, opposition to abortion, etc. PC people don't see all religions as a "protected class" at all, quite the opposite. Just some. So giant hypocrites.
     
  2. Peuri

    Peuri Game

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    But shouldn't "race" be irrelevant today? If we perpetuate the idea today that we must pay heightened attention to the skin colour of historical figures and not say, hair colour or nose shape or eye colour or brow size, perpetuating the idea that "races" exist? I used to hold your point of view until I noticed that it has a racist undertone in it. The situation must go all ways, though. So Shaka should be also played by an ethnic irishman too.
     
  3. Peuri

    Peuri Game

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    There is some hypocrity there, and I'd say it comes from the cultural relativism that many on the left seem to have bought into. So it's ok to criticize christians, because they are "western" and as such part of your "culture", but it's harder to criticize muslims because they are not. Mix in the fears of appearing as a racist and as a cultural colonialist.
     
  4. Berzerker

    Berzerker Deity

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    When people criticize Christians its because they're violating Jesus' teachings, Muslims can do evil without violating Muhammad's teachings.
     
  5. luiz

    luiz Trendy Revolutionary

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    Look if it's done really in a color blind way, as it's been done in the theater for decades, then I'm fine with it (even though I think portraying Shaka by some Irish guy would make the movie less visually authentic, same with a Chinese Alexander).

    But that's not the case. Indeed, the modern trend is to deeply criticize non-European historical figures (even mythological figures) being portrayed by white actors, while praising the portrayal of historical or mythological European actors by people of other backgrounds, in the name of "diversity". What is really happening is the imposition of the stupid American viewpoint of "diversity as different skin tones" on the whole world and all of its history and a pretty big double standard at that.

    And you'll note that it's all condescending and tokenistic. Why aren't they making movies set in Africa? Why aren't they telling different stories, instead of just butchering the Illyad or whatever other classic that's been done to exhaustion?
     
  6. Peuri

    Peuri Game

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    Yes, I agree. Criticizing "white" actors playing historically "black" characters as white washing, and at the same time demanding the reverse is hypocricy. Also saying that having people of different skin colours = diversity of thought is veering on racism.
     
  7. Sprenk

    Sprenk Prince

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    It's just strongly indicated, but not a sure thing--I'll grant you that. But I doubt "SJW" will ever be a term that the group it is used to insult will want to appropriate and re-claim (unlike, say, "queer," which used to be a homophobic slur, before it got ironically re-appropriated by the group it was meant to insult).

    I assume anyone who uses "SJW" is either a gamergater or a fellow-traveller. I suppose it could be used by someone who isn't aware of the where the term originated--but, if so, they would be wise to be a little more savvy about their use of language.
     
  8. Sprenk

    Sprenk Prince

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    1). If, in the name of fairness or "authenticity," you don't let non-white actors portray characters in historical dramas, then you are effectively locked them out of most theater work. Ideally, we'll reach a place where race doesn't matter, but, at the moment, "authenticity" is a way to say you want to keep the racial composition of casts primarily white.
    2). If you're talking about, say, ancient Greek drama, then it's silly to think of "white" as a useful term for designating characters' races. They didn't think in those terms--and they certainly weren't white in the way you might imagine. "White" is a relatively recent racial construction.
     
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  9. Ajidica

    Ajidica High Quality Person

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    It is worth pointing out that in the ancient world, Athens was a major stop in a trans-continental trading network. Tin from Cornwall, Cedar from Lebanon, spices from India, incense from Ethiopia and Arabia Felix, grain from the Black Sea, and cloth from Egypt and Mesopotamia. A movie portraying ancient Athens with "Brooklyn-like diversity" would not be incorrect in visually expressing its diversity compared to backwater hilltop forts in the Greek interior.
     
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  10. Sprenk

    Sprenk Prince

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    3). There are many, many examples of white artists being accepted in fields normally associated with black culture. Eminem, for example (but NOT Vanilla Ice :lol:). Elvis. If you show you understand the spirit of the medium, you can win acceptance. If you turn it into mayo, expect resistance.
    4). Would we really want to see "Hamilton" presented by an all-white cast? :lol: But we should if we're going on "authenticity"?!
     
  11. Sprenk

    Sprenk Prince

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    5). "Whitewashing" (e.g. Scarlett Johansson in Ghost in the Shell) is usually accompanied with the excuse that "there are no qualified [asian women] actresses in play the role." But there are. Can you imagine "Black Panther" with Nicholas Cage and Bruce Willis? There obviously were plenty of qualified black actors and actresses (thank god).
    6). Some works require a particular portrayal of race. "Gone with the Wind," for example, needs a presentation of a very "white" Southern culture (as well as a stereotypical portrayal of a "slave culture.") But most works don't need to present the character as any particular race.
     
  12. caketastydelish

    caketastydelish By any means necessary

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    You can replace PC culture with either Mac culture or Linux culture. Personally, I prefer PC.
     
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  13. innonimatu

    innonimatu Deity

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    Before political correctness was a thing, people already cared not to offend their interlocutors unnecessarily. Social courtesy and political correctness are different things. What political correctness has been about is deliberate, careful, premeditated lying for political gain. Virtue signaling, and I don't care if it was a right-wing magazine that coined the term - they are right as in true on that one.

    Take the propaganda campaign to make it politically correct to welcome "refugees" in Europe, deployed over the past few years. In several countries we had politicians who tell us that the common people of the country must accept and care for economic immigrants. We had journalists and intellectuals who echo and amplify that message. But those countries did not had a good social and economic structure to care for pool people in general, quite the opposite: what such structure existed has been in a process of gradual disassembly. Of course people there were wary of accepting those economic immigrants! There is a tolerant streak in many of those countries that led people, even without pushes from above, to accommodate immigrants. But that is being tested and gradually people will get angry and openly express their contempt for the hypocritical talk of the leaders. Populations welcome immigrants when their lives and their resources available are increasing. When they are worsening, courtesy of political projects imposed from above, they will not.
    Who has benefited from this political correctness regarding immigrants? The immigrants? Those who are structurally consigned to the lowest level of society and face an increasingly likely future of popular hostility where they did manage to get in? No, they were not protected, they were set up.

    Political correctness is being used as a political tool in an attempt to silence discussion, protest and criticism of the choices made by the powerful. Because they are always the ones who decide what is "correct". But the expression of contrary views is absolutely vital to democracy, it is absolutely vital to keep societies balanced, healthy, adaptable. It is an essential first step to identify and correct problems. Where PC is deployed problems are hidden - until they explode.

    Is is funny that people are now discussing whitewashing versus diversity in Hollywood productions as an example of political correctness. You know what irritates me? Seeing young people in my country all go through a phase of fascination with media imports from the USA. What shall I call that, hollywashing?

    We are not beeping americans, we do not need Hollywood's racism, memes, political correctness with causes that are foreign to our situation, or imperial propaganda. But we had all that shoved down out throats from birth. Isn't "globalization" nice? Furthermore, Hollywood's concern with diversity is extremely parochial: they cannot even represent the diversity of opinion within their own country, yet they presume to lecture the world on diversity? Seem from abroad, its laughable. Seen from vast swaths of the US itself, I'm sure it is also.
    So that does irritate me. But if causes little concern because, you know what? People, after wasting a few years with that fascination, grow out of it. It works as a kind of anti-propaganda-vaccine. PC always ends up failing.
     
    Last edited: Jun 16, 2018
  14. Peuri

    Peuri Game

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    But if we want to live in a post-race society, and I wholeheartedly wish we could, why would Ghost in a cell (never seen it, it's from an anime show?) necessitate actors from Asia? I haven't seen Black Panther either, (it's an African ethno state utopia, right?), but I don't think skin colour should matter there either, or alternatively such movies that depict racist societies should not be made at all. Oh boy, am I "PC" now? :D
     
  15. Peuri

    Peuri Game

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    I would use the term "SJW" of people who deplatform people because of "problematic" speech in Universities for example, demand segregated safe spaces or harangue non-melanine-rich people using dreadlocks, but I wouldn't say that I am in the alt-right, or what ever. Or if I am in the alt-right because of that, I must have serious cognitive dissonance, because I have always voted for green or left wing parties. (Ok, I voted pirates once in my youth, lol, but that's a sort of digital anarchism, right?) I care for many of the same things "they" care about, but I disagree with their actions trying to reach those goals. What word would you like me to use of such people instead?
     
  16. Kaitzilla

    Kaitzilla Lord Croissant

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    We should dismantle the bamboo ceiling and racial quotas.
    https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/15/us/harvard-asian-enrollment-applicants.html

    And try to tame PC culture when it runs amok.
    Having a college president partner with a mob because it is the politically correct decision to make is terrifying.



    At least the college had the decency to pay him $500,000.
     
    Last edited: Jun 17, 2018
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  17. aelf

    aelf Ashen One

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    You don't really read, do you? This I have addressed:

    And I notice that it has now been addressed again separately.

    But I did say you're free to rant on your pet topics. I just want to correct your misconception that you're doing anything else but that.
     
  18. NovaKart

    NovaKart شێری گەورە

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    I suspect Hollywood isn’t even sincere about this and just latches on to PC because it’s popular and they think it will be profitable for them.

    Then there’s PC in academia which can sometimes become rather arcane and difficult for those who don’t study it to understand or at least apart from the way most people experience things.

    I think it’s difficult to fight against PC because it seems to exist as a movement of reaction that itself provokes a reaction. People censor themselves to avoid a controversy and so we all bow to the pressure of PC even if we don’t agree with it.

    What’s irritated me about the migrant crisis is people pretending to be refugees and pretending to be children but that’s a separate issue I suppose unless we’re talking about people being pressured not to discuss it.
     
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  19. inthesomeday

    inthesomeday Immortan

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    I’ve kinda started to “reclaim” SJW. I mean at this point it basically just means a leftist, and I am a leftist. The way people use it, even in this very thread, has painted somebody even cognizant that white supremacy exists as an SJW. Plus I’ve never really seen anything negative be branded as an SJW, mostly just stuff I agree with and fabricated right wing news articles that exaggerate or invent fictional occurrences.
     
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  20. Peuri

    Peuri Game

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    Concepts like "white supremacy" and "patriarchy" are so nebulous that I seriously doubt their usefulness outside of very theoretical sociology. They are easy cop-outs like the marxist claim of false consciusness or the religious claim of possession by Satan, that I seriously doubt their usefulness when applied to free debate. On the extreme they are used to discredit people's arguments or research because of the happenstance of their skin colour or genitalia. That is not ok, because that ends the conversation by claiming moral superiority. It also segregates people. It's easy for students of course, because they probably couldn't win a professor in debate, but if you can undercut the professor's arguments because of the professor's supposed false consciusness, you don't have to deal with the argument itself. Their language is also drabed in semantic wizardry and often times hyperbole. Their proposals are often purported as supporting equality etc., they must think it themselves, but then if you take the opposing position because of some implications in the proposal, it's like you are against little kittens and rainbows.

    I read Patai's and Koertge's Professing Feminism (I recommend it to everyone) a few weeks ago, because the "SJW" phenomenon fascinates me. After reading the book I feel that the problem is closely related to how some Women's Studies programs became dominated by radical feminists and entangled with political activism in the 80's and 90's. They though that natural science is inherently misogynistic, and therefore a puppet of patriarchy, and to be dismissed a whole. That men and women have distinct ways of knowing. They thought that it's the mission of the professors to be political activists. It's also the birth place of situation epistemology, which claims that knowledge itself is dependant on the identity of the claimer, it's the birth place of various ethnic "studies" as an extension of black feminist claims of white feminists discriminating them. The way "SJW"s act seem to have been adopted from the radical feminist play book. I feel that that is where most of my grievance with "PC" or "SJW" culture comes from. If that means I'm a puppet of the white supremacist patriarchy, well then so be it.

    I symphatize with the "SJW"s goals to an extent, but I vehemently disgree with their tactics. But I suspect that in the end we would disagree what the ideal society would look like too, and whether or not it's possible to create it in the material world.
     

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