[R&F] How good are Immortals against Knights?

[Leathaface]

I've been looking at some Diety tier lists and Persia ranks high on them. Now I'm not on Diety yet, I'm on Immortal, but it makes sense Persia should be a top tier Immortal civ too.

Now there unique unit is the Immortal. I hear they can shoot like an Archer but are pretty good in melee range, but how do they do if they get struck by a Knight, do they get one showed? I'm asking because Knight rushes seems to end all my games on Immortal.

Also, do Immortals benefit from the additional combat strength from Oligarchy?

 

[DWilson]

Not good. They need fortified defenses. They aren't super strong, more useful on lower difficulties when they combat contemporaries.

 

[Pietato]

They get wrecked by Knights at Deity. I am pretty sure Oligarchy does work, but their base strength is too low for it to matter.

 

[Victoria]

Lets be clear about the reason they are high tier.... their move speed bonus at start of war which is for all units, not just military. A builder with golden monument in play is by far the fastest thing at sea for quite a while as one example. This seems a solid reason that pretty much most agree with.

If the immortal was that good they would just wipe the world clean but it is not. It's OK and a move speed of 4 on it is great but the real difference here is if you are playing against an AI player or a human player. Playing against an AI you should be able to take knights out via sound tactics as long as you have good visibility. This is more about good play and additional move speed than immortal use. Against a human with knights you will be eaten, for a start they will either declare on you or fall back until your move bonus is gone... then you are just toast.

Oligarchy vs Autocracy... taking Oligarchy just to buff a couple of units may not always be the best choice.

how do they do if they get struck by a Knight, do they get one shotted

A knight is 48 vs Immortal Oligarch is 34 is a difference of 14. The knight will do 42-63 HP to the immortal. the immortal will do 13-20 HP to the knight.
The next round the difference will likely be 18 and the immortal is toast with the knight being roughly 1/4 damaged which will be strong enough to still kill another immortal.

An oligarch spearman how ever is 39
A Oligarch hoplite with an adjacent hoplite is 51.. add echelon and its 56

 

[kb27787]

I'm pretty sure the oligarchy bonus only works for the immortal's melee attack (to be quite frank, as a UU they just downright suck.. it is the UA that is great, not the UU), same with their promotions actually... you get the +7 only when doing melee damage.
Meaning that you are stuck using what are essentially unpromoteable archers against knights. On immortal I don't know, but on deity you'd do probably 10+ damage per shot meaning that it will take forever to take down a single knight (even +12 archers don't take down knights that easily... you need +12 XB).

 

[Victoria]

you need +12 XB

And a knights first promo is normally Barding

 

[kb27787]

And a knights first promo is normally Barding

Heh? Is it weird that I always get charge? Am I the only one who does so? mainly because I like the +7 to districts a lot more than its lvl 2 counterpart (don't even remember what it is, actually)

 

[Leathaface]

Oligarchy vs Autocracy... taking Oligarchy just to buff a couple of units may not always be the best choice.


A knight is 48 vs Immortal Oligarch is 34 is a difference of 14. The knight will do 42-63 HP to the immortal. the immortal will do 13-20 HP to the knight.
The next round the difference will likely be 18 and the immortal is toast with the knight being roughly 1/4 damaged which will be strong enough to still kill another immortal.

An oligarch spearman how ever is 39
A Oligarch hoplite with an adjacent hoplite is 51.. add echelon and its 56

How do I get an oligarch spearman to 39? According to wikia their melee strength is only 25.

 

[Pietato]

Deity AI also gets +4 strength bonus.
Immortal's ranged attack does get boosted by promotions (at least it did before). Does not help against Knights, though.
I also take Charge on my Knights, so I can kill cities faster with the next promotion.
Spearman are anti-cavalry, so get +10 strength versus cavalry.

Staying in Oligarchy and using the Legacy card is only really viable for Rome.

 

[Leathaface]

I never knew anti-cavalry units got +10 strength versus cavalry.

So, for example, if you had 2 Pikemen adjacent to each other, would they be able to defeat 2 adjacent knights? Or at least hold them off?

 

[leandrombraz]

I'm playing Chandragupta, who have a similar ability and, even though he also get +5 strength, the +2 movement is just OP against AI. You don't waste any turn moving, you're always right at the enemy units/cities attacking it. Siege units benefit a lot from it since they can attack and shoot at the same turn, so once you take down whatever resistance the AI had, you just move from city to city, siege it and start attacking in one turn. 10 turns is more than enough to conquer a whole Civ or most of it.

Immortal might be weak against Cavalry but at least against the AI the extra movement give a huge advantage to ranged units. You can move to a defensive position and attack, you can easily swarm enemy units and kill them before they do anything, you can use the full strength of good positioning since all your units can easily get where they need, when they need. You can make full use of of flanking bonus and support bonus ("defensive flanking". Each of your units that is adjacent to each other get +2 when defending), which will give you an edge against stronger units.

Personally I like Immortal's flexibility, regardless of how strong the unit is. If I can afford to go melee I do it, if I can't I go ranged, I love to have options. It might not be strong but it's fun to use.

 

[Trav'ling Canuck]

Immortal might be weak against Cavalry but at least against the AI the extra movement give a huge advantage to ranged units.

I'm seeing the AI make pretty good use of mobility, too. It will use Pitati Archers and Cossacks, for example, to surround and kill cities/units to good effect if you don't set up a defensive perimeter to block them out.

Where the AI is weak is in then leaving those attacking units in a vulnerable position where they can be counter-attacked, but I don't mind that too much. That's what it's production bonuses should be for to let it rebuild quickly and have reinforcements.

My current impressions are that there has been an improvement post the latest patch in the willingness of the AI to attack when it has a chance to kill, and that it does best when attacking with fast units, as its better able to concentrate firepower when using fast units.

 

[Victoria]

if you had 2 Pikemen adjacent to each other, would they be able to defeat 2 adjacent knights? Or at least hold them off?

Pikeman is 41 + 10 vs cav +2 for support = 53 vs 48... should destroy the knights but be rather battered in the process an dthe scanario often includes additional factors but yes, you got it.

Immortal might be weak against Cavalry but at least against the AI the extra movement give a huge advantage to ranged units

What you are really saying as that is the civ's ability not the immortals that counts here, yes they are happily tied but how about a persian musketman. In essence I would rather the Persians have a swordsman than an immortal... thats the sad thing here, te immortal to me makes Persia weaker and perhaps that is a good thing.

 

[Pietato]

The Knights would run off and pillageheal, then come back.