Still, what should a decent society do? Obviously some kind of rehab is a good idea as it has a chance of turning them back into productive citizens.
How guilty are drug users?
- Thread starter luiz
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Still, what should a decent society do? Obviously some kind of rehab is a good idea as it has a chance of turning them back into productive citizens.
skadistic
Caomhanach
Any one who wants help can get it. Any one who wants to stop can. But they really have to want to. Putting 'their fault' in quotes doesn't negate the fact that it is their fault. No one made them start.
Irish Caesar
Yellow Jacket
Well, on the one hand, I'd have to say that gangs are responsible for their own violence.
However, without a demand for drugs, there would be no market, and so the users give the dealers the means of continuing to rake in the money and the guns. The dealers, of course, know that once the users get addicted, they have them where they want them, but the user knows what he is getting into when he starts.
I'm sure there isn't a single one of us who wasn't told that drugs are bad and that they get you addicted and they fuel crime and whatever else. It would be difficult for a user to plead ignorance on that. I can see the mindset that the "crime" is "victimless," I agree that legalization would make the black market un-necessary, but until that happens, a demand for drugs will cause a black market supply and the crime that comes with it.
Maybe the average bum on the street doesn't realize that at first, but the educated middle and upper class kids who take up weed certainly should.
However, without a demand for drugs, there would be no market, and so the users give the dealers the means of continuing to rake in the money and the guns. The dealers, of course, know that once the users get addicted, they have them where they want them, but the user knows what he is getting into when he starts.
I'm sure there isn't a single one of us who wasn't told that drugs are bad and that they get you addicted and they fuel crime and whatever else. It would be difficult for a user to plead ignorance on that. I can see the mindset that the "crime" is "victimless," I agree that legalization would make the black market un-necessary, but until that happens, a demand for drugs will cause a black market supply and the crime that comes with it.
Maybe the average bum on the street doesn't realize that at first, but the educated middle and upper class kids who take up weed certainly should.
So you think the Drug Dealers are blameless then?You know, imho, a good society has to be pragmatic about these things. Part of being pragmatic is recognizing that people can and will make mistakes. Condemning people for the mistakes they will inevitably make is cruel. Further, ignoring the problems that those mistakes cause and justifying that ignorance by condemning others does much to make us worse off, and nothing to make us better. We should instead be focusing on lessening the amount of such mistakes that are made, and helping to correct the ones that are.
-Drachasor
Yeah, helping someone quit drugs is really "rewarding" them for taking it. Stupid homeless shelters and food banks are just rewarding people who don't have jobs or homes too.
Anyone who wants help being the key. How many drug addicts have high self-esteem and self-confidence? Addiction of any kind in a sense fuels depression that is likely already there.
nivi
Call me Ishmael
Yes, I edited that in after. Thank you.
Have I said that ? Of course they aren't blameless. But they won't forcibly make you use it, you're "freinds" however, will (pressure you).
I didn't mean it like that. I meant it in the sense that drug addiction shouldn't be treated as a crime, but nor should it be treated as a simple medical condition. There may often be a medical reason behind an addiction (injury leads to pain killer addiction; psychological trauma leads to alcoholism ect ect), but there is still responsibility on the addict's part.
Yeah, well your one anecdotal case doesn't make you an expert on addictive drugs, quite obviously. It's great you were able to shake off addiction, but other people aren't so fortunate. Some people have a harder time than others, and that's a simple fact.
They are victims. Just because they made one mistake and got addicted, does not mean they aren't victims. People who get conned are victims too. The addiction makes it extremely difficult (possibly nigh impossible for some) to quit as well (but you seem to like glossing over that fact).
-Drachasor
nivi
Call me Ishmael
They haven't made one mistake, in order to get addicted you have to do it many times.
Oh yes, because society is really set up to be compassionate towards drug users. There's certainly no reason to try to hide an addiction. We're all very understanding of the psychological issues involved and are appropriately compassionate. We certainly would never dream of attaching stigma to a user or former user, thereby making it harder to seek help. And making it illegal to take drugs so that you could risk getting sent to jail, that's certainly quite out of the question.
Your harsh judgment of someone that made one mistake (starting a drug) is grossly unfair and even cruel.
skadistic
Caomhanach
I'm not glossing over anything. Why are they victims exactly? Who are they victimized by exactly? Doing drugs isn't a mistake. Putting a stamp on upside down is a mistake. Why do you make excuses for them? Since you know all about addiction and lived with addiction and then withdrawls maybe you can tell me why exactly you want to give them a pass. Or you could always go read about it and come back.
For some drugs it only takes one time, but true, for others it is multiple times.
So if someone makes 10 related mistakes over a relatively short period of time, then we should judge them harshly and say they deserve whatever consequences they get, however long they last?
Whatever happened to compassion, people?
skadistic
Caomhanach
Society is very compassionate to those who seek help. But being the expert you are in addiction that has lived through it and gone through the rehab and failed. Then gone again. And again. There is no stigma to a sober person. You get praise like you wouldn't believe ( or know and its evident you don't ) when people find out you have overcome addiction.
Cruel is treating addicts like its not their fault. Doing drugs is not a mistake.
nivi
Call me Ishmael
Do you happen to know that it is in fact nicotine which is among the most addictive, some say most addictive? If you get hooked on one pack then something is wrong with you, an addiction develops over time!
Yes tehy deserve the consequences, yes we should help them.
What is your proposal on how society should treat drug users? Do you think we should marginalize them and otherwise treat them exactly as we do now?
Taking drugs IS a mistake. It is a BIG mistake, but still a mistake, an error in judgment. There are things we can do, as a society, to reduce the number of people that make this mistake, but we still have to do with the remainder that do. Saying "it's their fault" doesn't solve the problem, nor do I see how it even really addresses the problem. Since the problem affects society today and what we are doing now is clearly inadequate, we obviously need to change our strategy for handling drugs.
And I don't mean to be harsh, but pretending you know everything about how someone can overcome addiction just because YOU overcame addiction is hubris to a high degree. It's a medical fact that different people metabolize drugs differently. What may be very unpleasant and a bit mentally challenging for you, may be a difficulty of the highest degree to someone else. There is some good research that has been done and is being done to help people overcome addiction, and we should certainly be putting that research to much better use. I've found that when most people say "it's their fault" however, they are typically saying "We shouldn't do anything more to help them."
Yeah, it would be a great world if everyone could overcome their addictions on their own. If everyone would go to a clinic (and have the money needed for it) with determination overcoming their shame, and get the latest understanding and care -- heck, better if they didn't even need that to quit and didn't have to worry about the years necessary to get over certain drugs. Just looking at the drug problem in America, and you quickly see that we do not live in such a world.
Do you have anything to add other than "I quit and it's their fault"?
Chandrasekhar
Determined
Drachasor, how do you propose to help people that don't want to help themselves?
LucyDuke
staring at the clock
Educate yourself. Erowid is a good place to learn. Don't believe hype. I am never going to say "don't do drugs", but don't do drugs for the wrong reasons, or without knowing precisely what you're getting yourself into..
Don't make assumptions, buddy. Do you have personal experience with physical addiction?
This is a very good, very important point. It might be hard to imagine someone not caring for help if you haven't seen it, but some people have no motivation to get "help". As long as they can keep doing what they're doing, that's all they want, and that's all they care for. Getting better isn't easy, and they haven't got the motivation.
Back to the point, though. I'm an occasional drug user, no need to get specific, and I know that in some cases my money is going to places I'd rather not send it. Unfortunately, while I can buy my deodorant at CVS instead of Wal-Mart when I don't like Wal-Mart's business practices, I don't have the same option for things less legal. I can see why these chemicals trouble some people, but ultimately, users like myself make the conscious decision to seek them out. I am an adult and I don't feel that my government has the right to tell me what chemicals I can and cannot use. (Whether or not they actually have that right isn't really relevant.) Unfortunately, my government has failed to prevent me from using these chemicals. All my government has done is ensured that I can't buy 'em at CVS instead of Wal-Mart. I gotta go to Joel, and there's no way to know where the money is ultimately going. That's too bad, because there is a thriving black market and profit margins are artificially inflated to fund all this crap people are complaining about.
Anyway, end rant. I know some of the blame belongs with me and people like me. I think the prohibition deserves the vast majority of the blame, though, as I've been saying for... ever, really. Retract prohibition, profits plummet, and the black market goes away overnight. Problem solved. Seriously. This is a complicated issue, but not as complicated as people with preconceptions about "drugs are bad" like to believe.
There is nothing complicated about this.
I find it hard that someone could come up with a compelling argument that making certain drugs is heinous and despicable in some way, so the laws pass the "slavery test." Given that, the totality of the burden of guilt for the use and the effects of that use fall squarely on the shoulders of the users and suppliers. Both are equally guilty and responsible for the harm illegal drug trafficking causes our society.
I find it hard that someone could come up with a compelling argument that making certain drugs is heinous and despicable in some way, so the laws pass the "slavery test." Given that, the totality of the burden of guilt for the use and the effects of that use fall squarely on the shoulders of the users and suppliers. Both are equally guilty and responsible for the harm illegal drug trafficking causes our society.
I never said someone isn't responsible for the mistake (or at least never meant to say that). That said, you've seemed to imply they deserve all the consequences of that mistake, which I heartily disagree with.
Sure, society can be pretty good at praising someone that has quit, but it is not so hot at supporting someone that is trying to quit. It's easy to praise success.
