How guilty are drug users?

[drachasor]

In your opinion, does anyone ever deserve any consequences of their actions? E.g. does a criminal deserve to go to prison? Does a dictator deserve to be assassinated?

It can certainly happen, and I think the intended goal of a justice system is to try to make sure it happens in criminal cases -- though criminals can certainly get away, innocents can be convicted, and sentences can have inappropriate severity, but ideally those are exceptions to the rule.

Beyond that it can certainly happen by accident. I think it is important to remember that "deserve" implies some sort of judgment based worth or merit, even moral connotations. The physics of how the world works is non-moral, so we wouldn't expect any correlation.

(As a side note, I would say I care a lot more about rehabilitation of criminals and prevention of crime than in punishing people. I think those are generally more effective techniques to give ex-cons meaningful lives while decreasing crime. But I don't want this to descend into a huge discussion about my views on penal systems, it's current faults, and how we need to research some things more. If people really want to talk about it, someone can make a thread and I'll ramble on there).

 

[Chandrasekhar]

It can certainly happen, and I think the intended goal of a justice system is to try to make sure it happens in criminal cases -- though criminals can certainly get away, innocents can be convicted, and sentences can have inappropriate severity, but ideally those are exceptions to the rule.

Beyond that it can certainly happen by accident. I think it is important to remember that "deserve" implies some sort of judgment based worth or merit, even moral connotations. The physics of how the world works is non-moral, so we wouldn't expect any correlation.

(As a side note, I would say I care a lot more about rehabilitation of criminals and prevention of crime than in punishing people. I think those are generally more effective techniques to give ex-cons meaningful lives while decreasing crime. But I don't want this to descend into a huge discussion about my views on penal systems, it's current faults, and how we need to research some things more. If people really want to talk about it, someone can make a thread and I'll ramble on there).

So, let me set this hypothetical situation in front of you: One man murders another man. However, he says afterwords that he knows his actions were wrong and he wants to repent for them. Suppose he gives you some compelling reason to believe he's being sincere. Would you advocate dropping all criminal charges against him?

 

[emzie]

So, let me set this hypothetical situation in front of you: One man murders another man. However, he says afterwords that he knows his actions were wrong and he wants to repent for them. Suppose he gives you some compelling reason to believe he's being sincere. Would you advocate dropping all criminal charges against him?

And how does that compares to drug addiction.

 

[frob2900]

However, he says afterwords that he knows his actions were wrong and he wants to repent for them. Suppose he gives you some compelling reason to believe he's being sincere. Would you advocate dropping all criminal charges against him?

Eh. I think being sincere about your guilt, cooperating with the police and pleading guilty will often lead to a more lenient sentence

Reducing the issue to two alternatives (release or full punishment) is just silly.

 

[The Yankee]

I don't know if anyone is advocating dropping the charges of someone that went out and murdered someone while they were intoxicated...which I'm presuming is the tie to this whole thread. Even so, I think drachsor is looking for ways to reduce the recidivism rate amongst convicts that have been released. Whether it's through programs that also combine stiff sentences or not is something that's beyond my own capabilities to figure out.

 

[drachasor]

So, let me set this hypothetical situation in front of you: One man murders another man. However, he says afterwords that he knows his actions were wrong and he wants to repent for them. Suppose he gives you some compelling reason to believe he's being sincere. Would you advocate dropping all criminal charges against him?

I'll answer this one question, but if you want to go into it more then make a new thread for this sort of thing (because I think it is quite off-topic).

I would not advocate dropping all criminal charges against him. I think that would do far more harm than good on a number of levels. You certainly need some level of "payment" to society for criminals. You also need a good rehabilitation system, because 20 years in prison and then getting released without any job skills doesn't do anyone any good. I could elaborate on my views further in another venue, if you wish.

-Drachasor

 

[bhsup]

I'll answer this one question, but if you want to go into it more then make a new thread for this sort of thing (because I think it is quite off-topic).

I would not advocate dropping all criminal charges against him. I think that would do far more harm than good on a number of levels. You certainly need some level of "payment" to society for criminals. You also need a good rehabilitation system, because 20 years in prison and then getting released without any job skills doesn't do anyone any good. I could elaborate on my views further in another venue, if you wish.

-Drachasor

Oddly enough, I sort of agree with that. Since we're veering into murder, I'll go with that angle. I support the death penalty, but if a murderer is not executed and is sentenced to 20 years in jail instead, we do indeed have a duty to ensure they are able to be functioning citizens when they get out. That's the deal the government makes with him/her.

 

[Chandrasekhar]

And how does that compares to drug addiction.

Both deal with actions that have consequences. A rough similarity, I know, but I'm trying to feel out the sense of morals here.

I'll answer this one question, but if you want to go into it more then make a new thread for this sort of thing (because I think it is quite off-topic).

I would not advocate dropping all criminal charges against him. I think that would do far more harm than good on a number of levels. You certainly need some level of "payment" to society for criminals. You also need a good rehabilitation system, because 20 years in prison and then getting released without any job skills doesn't do anyone any good. I could elaborate on my views further in another venue, if you wish.

-Drachasor

That seems to be a contradiction with what you've previously said. If a person's actions are just a result of their nature and upbringing, which they are helpless to influence, then they cannot be held accountable for any of their own actions. If there's no reason to think that they'll commit further crimes, then there's no reason to put them in prison. To advocate putting a person in prison simply as "payment to society" goes against what you've said so far, as I see it.

Edit: I think this does eventually tie back in to the original subject, but if you want to start a thread on it, I'll read through it tomorrow when I have more time.

 

[MobBoss]

They are hugely guilty. Lets face it. If people didnt buy illegal drugs...people wouldnt sell illegal drugs.

 

[drachasor]

They are hugely guilty. Lets face it. If people didnt buy illegal drugs...people wouldnt sell illegal drugs.

Lovely insight there.

@Chandrasekhar: It's not a contradiction (but this isn't the place to talk about it).

@Yankee: I'm for whatever works best (which quite often means we'll have to test out different methods as part of a longitudinal study); naturally I have my opinions on the matter though, and there's some stuff we do know.

 

[frob2900]

They are hugely guilty. Lets face it. If people didnt buy illegal drugs...people wouldnt sell illegal drugs.

Who cares? It's a redundant question anyway, since the only really relevant one is what to do with drug users. Whatever you think of them, they exist in society.

 

[The Yankee]

@Yankee: I'm for whatever works best (which quite often means we'll have to test out different methods as part of a longitudinal study); naturally I have my opinions on the matter though, and there's some stuff we do know.

Experimentation only seems to come out of necessity...so expect it to happen when we really couldn't fit more people into the prison system.

 

[nivi]

Something else people forget, especially the it's not his fault lets just send him to rehab folks.

People who willingly (as opposed to rehab after an arrest) enter rehab, have success rates in the single digits.

 

[innonimatu]

Depression has been the 20th century hysteria...

 

[Grisu]

They are hugely guilty. Lets face it. If people didnt buy illegal drugs...people wouldnt sell illegal drugs.

if the government wouldn't make the drugs illegal, nobody would buy illegal drugs, hence the government is guilty

no really, what guilt are we really talking about here? 'guilty' of taking/buying drugs? As far as I'm concerned 'guilt' doesn't enter into it, everybody is resposnible himself what he lets into his body.

Guilty of the drug related crime? As long as they're not actively doing any of the same themselve (like rob someone to get the money for the next fix) they're not guilty of that. It's the people who actually commit the crime that are the guilty ones (drug dealers/pushers/etc).

 

[frob2900]

Something else people forget, especially the it's not his fault lets just send him to rehab folks.

People who willingly (as opposed to rehab after an arrest) enter rehab, have success rates in the single digits.

More like 20 per cent success rates, but still very low. That's why e.g. heroin addiction is better handled by government methadone prescriptions, which drastically cuts reoffense rates for heroin users and is a much greater success story than rehab clinics.

 

[Merkinball]

As I've expressed many times in this forums, I favour legalization of drugs. I think banning them is not only pointless, since they continue to find it's way to the consumers, but also an attack on individual liberties and not to mention fuel for criminality. - Luiz

This seems kind of counter intuitive doesn't it? Laws against drugs cause crime, so we should decriminalize it. Huh. Rape laws must cause crime too. Same with drunk driving laws. If it wasn't for those assault laws, maybe the jails wouldn't so full of thugs ya know?

Laws exist for one reason, and one reason only. And that is to protect people. To protect me, from you. To protect me, from all kinds of people out there that are violent. To punish those that do harm unto others.

It's trite to say, "drugs are a victimless crime." BS they are. How many people on drugs, hop in their car, and kill someone? How many idiots go out and assault someone? Or get hopped up and rape someone?

"Well Merkinball, what about alcohol huh?" You can have a beer and not get intoxicated. However, nobody does hard drugs, even marijuana, with any other purpose than completely intoxicating themselves. Once you reach that point, you represent an implicit threat to my well being and safety. You're irrational. Who knows what you will do. Certainly not you.

So for my safety, let's leave drug laws the way they are.

I am an adult and I don't feel that my government has the right to tell me what chemicals I can and cannot use. - LucyDuke

But the government does have the right to protect me, from you, after you injest whatever the chemical of the day is.

A girl getting raped is primarily a consequence of the actions of whoever assaults her. A drug user's troubles are caused by their own actions in defiance of the regulations the government has put in place to protect them, and with full foreknowledge of the results of drug use. I think the analogy is a very weak one. - Chandresakhar

Until that person does something irrational, or hops in a car. How's it any different than public intoxication or driving drunk?

 

[warpus]

"Well Merkinball, what about alcohol huh?" You can have a beer and not get intoxicated. However, nobody does hard drugs, even marijuana, with any other purpose than completely intoxicating themselves. Once you reach that point, you represent an implicit threat to my well being and safety. You're irrational. Who knows what you will do. Certainly not you.

So for my safety, let's leave drug laws the way they are.

You obviously have no idea what you're talking about.

1. Since when is marijuana a "hard" drug?
2. Doing soft drugs, such as marijuana, can be a social activity, much like having a beer or two with a couple friends. You do not always set out to get "blasted out of your skull". What's that called again.. hmm.. oh yeah, a stereotype.
3. 99.999% of people will be more of a threat to you sober than after smoking a joint.

 

[El_Machinae]

I encourage the legalisation of marijuana and think our society would be much better off if we just allowed it to be a commodity. Until then, however, I find that purchasing marijuana is likely to be an immoral act (in that you're giving money to criminal thugs) unless you personally know the grower.

If you know the grower isn't the type of person to maintain 'turf' with a baseball bat, then I don't really mind. 'Course, you should know that you risk jail time.

 

[emzie]

They are hugely guilty. Lets face it. If people didnt buy illegal drugs...people wouldnt sell illegal drugs.

Then it's the government's fault, because if drugs were legal, I wouldn't be breaking the law. I would gladly buy pain killers from the liquor store, instead from Danielle! And the government is beholdant to (if not the will of) the people. So it's y'all's fault!

Point being, there has always been, and will always be, a market for mind-altering substances. When we ban a substance, it is for 'the betterment of society' or some other crap. Well, there's truth behind that. Drug traffickers are involved in many more crimes than movement of narcotics. Drug users can be just as an alcoholic driving down the road.

So what's the line? IMHO, you hold people responsible for their actions. When they can be helped, you help. When not, then yes, for the betterment of society, you remove them.