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How I beat the Mongol Scenario on Deity

Discussion in 'Civ5 - Strategy & Tips' started by Silverfuturist, Jan 20, 2011.

  1. iggymnrr

    iggymnrr Deity

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    Yeah, but I need to keep 10 keshiks busy. Almost done with my game. Saved India for last. Will update a timeline shortly.
     
  2. mintcandy

    mintcandy King

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    I'm wondering how 10 Keshiks ran out of targets in Jin and China by turn 17, and why there were 8 turns in between declaring war on Jin and capturing Beijing.

    I try to avoid declaring war on Jin until I've got 3-4 Keshiks ready to pounce on Beijing, typically around turn 7-10. It usually takes 2-3 turns for those Keshiks to soften Beijing for a Horseman to yoink it.

    Also, I tend to declare on Green China way before I even start sending forces towards Persia, because the border of Green China's Chengdu happens to be on the Silk Road, which I will need for the trade and happiness bonuses in Persia and beyond. I also connect to the Silk Road from Western Xia, not by building a road from Western Xia to Beijing, which means that Chengdu is also necessary for me to connect to the rest of China.

    I find that Samarkand is Persia's toughest nut, what with all those hills and Persia's stupid movement bonus AND Persia's spamming of Pikemen.

    I look forward to the synopsis, though. Maybe it's more efficient than what I've been doing.
     
  3. iggymnrr

    iggymnrr Deity

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    :lol: If a person goes after Almaty early, he might as well keep going west. All free horsemen from CSes end up at the capitol which is why Beijing was slow to fall: building 2nd army on that front. All 5 starting horse, the one with names, became keshiks and went west through Persia, Arabia, Byzantium and Russia: Genghis Army. Second army (Kublai) took care of Jin, China, Japan and India. (Though a 3rd army could have been made for India to save time.) I razed most cities but saved 2 extra from Jin, 2 from Arabia and 1 from Persia. These were in addition to capitol cities. I warred against all but the 2 CSes by Arabia, capturing 3 military and 3 cultural and peace treatying the rest.

    Timeline as things happened, continuing from above:
    Turn 29: DoW Green China
    Turn 33: unhappiness spikes at -33
    Turn 36: unhappiness back to -9
    Turn 38: Jin dead
    Turn 40: Persia dead
    Turn 57 (?): Arabia dead
    Turn 64: China dead (Its capitol was strength 43!)
    Turn 71: Greece dead
    Turn 82: Japan dead (keshiks with rifles and frigates)
    Turn 88: Russia dead
    Turn 99: India dead (by drunken army returning from Japan)

    My empire was seldom happy until near the end when Notre Dame and FP were captured. Somewhere around turn 70 unhappiness went over 40 and it was a long time before it got below 20. Finished the game at 0 unhappiness. I don't know, but if a person is in near constant unhappiness, he is probably teching pretty good.
     
  4. mintcandy

    mintcandy King

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    Hmm...

    I suppose there is one thing that I haven't been doing that most people do in this scenario. All of my Keshiks were either bought/built from a city or were upgraded from the four original Horseman units at the beginning of the scenario...moreover, I don't upgrade the "free" Horsemen from conquering Western Xia and I usually don't conquer Almaty, nor do I ever buy/build Horseman units from a city.

    Why don't I ever convert the "free" Horseman units from Western Xia? Well, because of how I split my armies early on: the Keshiks taking Beijing need a Horseman, and the Keshiks coming from Karakorum and massing in Western Xia also need a Horseman.

    Why don't I ever build/buy Horseman units? The main reason is because I don't annex that many cities beyond Karakorum, and there are many more things I'd rather have in the build queue than a Horseman unit. The 2 free Horseman units from Western Xia are more than enough.

    However, it is an interesting idea to go after Almaty early to have free Horseman units to upgrade into early Keshiks....something I'll have to give some thought towards. One thing I'd do differently: I wouldn't declare war directly on Almaty. Instead, I'd declare war on who Almaty is allied with (hopefully India).

    Why wouldn't I declare directly on Almaty? Well, I don't want to screw up my standing with the other City States, specifically the Abbasids. I already had to declare on Uighur by itself, and one more declaration on a City State on Deity just increases the risk that the Abbasids could declare permanent war on me, which would be disastrous.

    Why would I prefer to declare war on India if it is allied with Almaty? Oh, that's simple. I just don't want the alternative of having to tangle with Persian Pikeman units from Samarkand. :p

    I'd also wait on conquering Almaty until you've taken Beijing. Why? Because IF Almaty is allied with Persia, you want those fast Persian Pikemen invading conquered Almaty to move only two hexes a turn, not three. :p

    For me, the Mongols and the original named Horseman units (minus the Merkits) are the Keshiks that are softening up Beijing. I haven't ever given this group a name, but I suppose I'll call them Strike Force AWESOME. :p

    The group of reinforcement Keshiks coming from Karakorum and massing on the southern edge of Western Xia plus the Merkits also don't have a name, but I guess I can call them Strike Force BADASS. Since they are bought or built in Karakorum, it is typically 2-3 Keshiks in strength.

    AWESOME's Keshiks will likely all have three promotions by the time Beijing falls. If Jin still holds Liaoyang, AWESOME's Keshiks proceed to soften up Liaoyang. If Liaoyang has fallen to Green China or when Liaoyang has fallen to me, AWESOME's Keshiks pounce on Kaifeng.

    Meanwhile, BADASS's Keshiks will proceed to soften up Jin's western most city during the siege of Beijing. Since BADASS Keshiks don't have the promotions of AWESOME's Keshiks, BADASS's progress will be noticeably slower.

    AWESOME and BADASS will eventually converge on Kaifeng. Once Jin is finished, I choose Engineering to make my progress through central China much smoother. Once they converge, AWESOME and BADASS cease to be separate entities.

    The combined force will seize the two Green Chinese cities closest to Kaifeng before splitting again. This time, I actively put veteran AND inexperienced Keshiks in both forces, so that neither force is completely impotent.

    One force is dedicated to wiping out Green Chinese cities that prevent Western Xia access to the Silk Road, and will later conquer Lhasa.

    The other force is dedicated to wiping out Green Chinese cities on the southern and east coasts of China.

    I usually finish off Lhasa and Green China at about the same time, with new Keshiks diverted to whichever force is lagging the most. The two forces mix again and split again before I start massing Keshiks through the eastern most access path to India (the one with Lhasa on its northwest border and Dali on its southeast border) and Keshiks on the Almaty/Samarkand border. War is initiated on Persia and India more or less simultaneously.

    Phew, I'm tired. I think that's enough for now.
     
  5. iggymnrr

    iggymnrr Deity

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    I don't think a permanent war will happen if the CS hasn't been discovered yet. Price of influence will rise however.
     
  6. mintcandy

    mintcandy King

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    I've had some of the City States that traditionally ally with Green China declare perma war with me after I declared on both Uighur and Western Xia before I've even met Green China.
     
  7. iggymnrr

    iggymnrr Deity

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    I think it would be fun to try and eliminate Russia first. Japan first would also be a hoot.
     
  8. iggymnrr

    iggymnrr Deity

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    It appears that a Japan first strategy is easier than expected. After some testing I came up with a 7-11 idea.

    Turn 7: Capture Liaoyang
    Turn 11: Capture Korea

    Annex Liaoyang and the moment it comes out of resistance buy, on consecutive turns, a scout and trireme.

    Turn 15-16: Capture Dazaifo with scout. Oda doesn't shoot units in water. A healthy horseman needs to land on Japanese island to be the meatshield for the 1st Keshik ashore. Tririme runs over whatever Oda puts in water. Get 3-4 keshiks ashore once samurai is dead. Its a cakewalk from this point.

    Turn 21: Capture Kyoto
    Turn 29: Japan dies while Beijing is captured.

    This is what I was able to do on a couple different tries. (10 turn peace treaty with Jin while in Japan.) I didn't have either Almaty or Western Xia yet, so the 2 armies are smaller. (7 keshiks by turn 30 instead of 10 by turn 20. But Japan is dead.
     
  9. mintcandy

    mintcandy King

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    Okay, I finally beat this scenario on Deity, with 5 turns to spare. I recognize areas where I can streamline my progress through the scenario, but I don't care anymore.

    Incidentally, it was also my first victory on Deity...funny, I thought I had another one. Oh well.
     
  10. iggymnrr

    iggymnrr Deity

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    Congrats! Perhaps a brief writeup?

    I finished the Japan first game. It was somewhat more natural to play for a number of reasons. The delay in dispatching the 2 Chinas tends to lead to more colosseums while razing/annexing. Late game Arabs are a pain and make it seem close but with rifles things finish in time. It had fewer total XPs than the hyper-aggressive previous game. Highest XP keshik was ~560 compared to 725. The drop was similar all down the line. Happiness was never a grave problem but the game felt a bit slower overall. I will explore a Russia 1st idea next and may post some notes on that approach.
     
  11. mintcandy

    mintcandy King

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    I didn't keep track of when events took place. One thing I did differently this time around was I never built/bought Keshiks. Instead, I built Horseman units at Karakorum, and immediately upgraded them when they were pumped out. Horseman units are easier to produce, and upgrading Horseman units isn't that big a strain on my coffers.

    Basically, I split my army in two right after I conquered Western Xia. My most experienced Keshiks were send east to take Beijing, while my reinforcement Keshiks from Karakorum massed in Western Xia, and harassed Xian and Chengdu. Meanwhile, I had workers connecting the Silk Road to Lhasa and India.

    My Beijing Keshiks were detailed to finish off Jin, and my Western Xia Keshiks were just distracting western Jin units so my Beijing Keshiks could run roughshod on the rest of Jin.

    Once Jin fell, I unleashed my Beijing Keshiks on Green China's central, eastern and southern cities. My Western Xia Keshiks went after Chengdu.

    After this, it's much easier to detail what each army was doing.

    Western Xia Force: Chengdu -> Lhasa -> Almaty -> Samarkand -> Persian Capital -> Vladimir -> northern Russian city -> Kiev -> outskirts of Byzantium

    Beijing Force: Green China -> Varansi -> Delhi -> Lahore -> western most Indian city -> Persian cities south of the capital -> allied with Abbasids -> Arabia -> Byzantium

    My Beijing Force definitely had the lion's share of the best Keshiks for the majority of the game. At its strongest, Beijing Force numbered some 8 Keshiks with 2-3 Khans and a Horseman.

    In contrast, Western Xia rarely had more than four Keshiks. At the beginning of the Persian campaign, I allocated a strong meatshield unit to Western Xia's army to prevent those fast Persian Pikeman units from ganking my Keshiks, which was reallocated to Beijing's army once it slammed into Persia.

    By the time Arabia was wrapping up, I culled some of my best Keshiks from both armies (~ turn 80, I reckon) and sent them east towards Japan. I had lots of money, so I annexed Green China's capital, rush built Courthouse, Barracks and Armory, and started rush buying Frigates. By the time I had an embarked strong meat shield on the eastern China coast, 2-3 Keshiks, and 3 Frigates, I allied with Korea so that I could use their coastline for my Keshiks to fire at Japanese embarked units, and fleeced Japan of their gold.

    Japan was last, and I had surrounded Honshu with 6-8 Frigates and landed a strong meat shield with 2-3 Keshiks on Honshu around turn 90. I found myself using my Frigates to shoot at Japanese embarked units to maximize my experience instead of killing them outright. I really should've ended the scenario sooner instead of farming Japan for experience.

    Anyhow, the civilizations that I had the most difficulty with were those that had many units that had more than 2 movement points.

    Persia was definitely the most challenging, given the restrictive terrain and their quick Pikeman units.

    India was also challenging, but I think I could've mitigated it with a strong meat shield for my Keshiks to hide behind.

    Russia was difficult in a different way. Since I pounced on Russia before Byzantium, the four Keshiks of Western Xia's army had to do a LOT of heavy lifting on their own. The only reinforcements I sent for the Russian invasion were Scouts to garrison puppet cities. :p
     
  12. iggymnrr

    iggymnrr Deity

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    Great tip. I've always done this but have never thought to mention it. It also looks like thinking in terms of 2 separate armies early in the scenario is also a useful thing to do. Nice writeup.
     
  13. iggymnrr

    iggymnrr Deity

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    I managed to do this scenario in 77 turns. All AI cities were taken in 76, Almaty took one more turn. There's a story in that. It was gifted to Arabia and then Persia took it. So it had to be taken twice. I used a 3 army approach. 1st Army (5 keshiks) went off to Russia->Hungary->Byzantium->Arabia. This can be done in ~60-65 turns. 2nd Army (4 keshiks) went off to Japan->Jin (Great Wall.) This can be done in ~60 turns. 3rd Army (4 keshiks) antagonized Green China->Lhasa->get behind India. This can be done by ~turn 60. Jin and Green China were both DOWed and peace treatied to allow 2nd and 3rd armies time to operate. In the end 3 armies were left with only 1 AI to finish off: 1st Army->Persia; 2nd Army->Green China; 3rd Army->India. It was left to 3rd Army to strike the final blow at Almaty. No frigates or musketmen/riflemen were used.

    There are some tactics that can be mentioned. Hit critical CSes before discovering the AI they are likely to be allies with. The need for horse was satisfied early. Western Xia was hit immediately before discovering Green China. Next, Almaty was discovered from the backside and DOWed before discovering Persia. Persia will be friendly on contact so open borders were signed right away. Darius will get upset quickly so open borders has to be signed immediately. There was a logistical problem involving which horse would capture Uighar. Uighar perma-warred with the DOW on Almaty. (This might be random, but if a person hasn't done any denouncement/DOW of an AI a perma-war is likely. So avoid responding with a denouncement if, say, Jin denounces.) A free horseman from Almaty needs to be with 2nd Army pretty fast. Using an Almaty-gifted horse to take Uighar is too slow. However, the horse that takes Almaty can take Uighar and use the silk and Persian roads to catch up to 1st Army in Russia.

    It is worth mentioning that the Great Wall isn't needed for some time. Even Jin's funny elephants can't stand up to promoted keshiks returning from Japan. They die on land as well as in the water. (Stupid AI.) Hitting Arabia from the backside is also very easy.

    Enough! I've done this scenario to death.
     
  14. mintcandy

    mintcandy King

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    I just started replaying the 1066 scenario after having beat the Mongol scenario on Deity.

    Holy crap. The 1066 scenario is way easier than the Mongol scenario, especially if you aren't playing as Godwinson. I've been playing primarily as Sweyn, and even on Deity, I'm not having much of an issue.

    However, I'm really torqued that a Deity 1066 victory doesn't also satisfy the achievements for victory on Emperor and Immortal. :(
     
  15. iggymnrr

    iggymnrr Deity

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    Yeah. As I recall, on immortal is was possible to not lose a city to the French. If they don't attack Dover right away ...
     
  16. mintcandy

    mintcandy King

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    The only achievement I have left for 1066 is an Immortal victory.

    I think I'm going to try doing it with the French this time...their Motte and Bailey improvement intrigues me.
     
  17. iggymnrr

    iggymnrr Deity

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    Toyed with this some more. Same idea as before but with more emphasis on getting 2nd and 3rd armies operational more quickly. Western Xia->Uighur->Almaty. Persia was discovered friendly so a great sell of Almaty was made with Darius: lux + 165 gold in exchange for Almaty + 2 iron. The lux helped speed the conquest of Japan as did a lux from a peace treaty with Jin. But that trade paled with the offer Wu made for peace ~turn 31 after Chengdu was taken by 3rd Army: 1800+ gold and a lux for peace. She then reopened her war with Jin. :crazyeye: That set up the final showdown very early. All 2nd Army had to do was finish Green China:
    Spoiler :
    It was now evident that sub-70 was possible. It also meant 1st Army was going to have to break off from Arabia and get started on Persia. A fourth army, the Cairo Crackers, had to be bought for that city. Meanwhile, 3rd Army was munching up India. The end came again at Almaty. This time 1st Army did the honors while 3rd Army watched:
    Spoiler :
    A turn 66 finish. Not too shabby.
     

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  18. jkg777

    jkg777 Chieftain

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    iggymnrr,

    Congratulation on wining in 66 turns! Wow! :bowdown:

    I've been trying your "take Russia and Japan early" strategy all week and I'm getting bogged down in Japan and additionally by the time I finish off Russia, the Persians and both Chinas DOW me and end up taking back some of the cities I've already taken. Then I'm done for completing in 100 turns.

    I've been taking my 1st army (all the original units that I start with are upgraded except one left as a horseman) to Uighur -> Almaty -> Russia. Then building a second army and going after Liaoyang -> Korea -> Japan. I get started on a third army but end up using it to defend Uighur from Wu's constant attacks.

    So when going after Japan early is it your first army that you capture Liaoyang with on turn 7? What units are in that army? And then is it your second army that goes to Uihur and westward?

    Also how do you take Japan :confused: ? I can get some keshiks ashore on the main island but can't take Koyoto :mad:. The keshiks just get stuck firing once and then having to retreat to not be overwhelmed by all the unit Japan is throwing at me. By the time I'm on the main island I have one or two trimeres but they don't help in taking Kyoto. What other units should I land on the island with my keshiks? You mention one horseman as a shield but it usually gets killed within a turn or two.

    I second the earlier vote for a Deity "Let's Play" for this scenario. I've been trying it for about 3 weeks now and not getting close to winning at deity. I won on Immortal with 2 turns left and figured if I gleaned this thread for tips I might stand a chance. But so far no luck.

    Thanks.
     
  19. iggymnrr

    iggymnrr Deity

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    2nd army with 4 keshiks, horseman, trireme (or 2) and scout. Japan can always wait until the end but often, if attacked early, Oda defends his capitol poorly or not at all (units in water.) It will be ~turn 18-20 when that 1st Japanese island falls. I take that city with the scout, saving the healthy horseman for a meatshield if necessary. 1st army (5 keshiks) should dispatch Russia by ~turn 25.

    I've never had problems with the 2 Chinas. I have been able to peace treaty both. War can be redeclared after 10 turns but the AI seems to wait the full 30.
     
  20. mintcandy

    mintcandy King

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    Personally, I'm not a big fan of attacking Japan before Jin and Green China have been finished off.

    The experience garnered by assaulting Jin and Green China are downright necessary for the Keshik promotions to succeed in Japan.


    Are you using Keshiks that have Logistics and Indirect Fire? If not, they are going to get torn to pieces.

    If I recall correctly, there is enough space on the southern tip of the Japanese main island to land four Keshiks without being overwhelmed by Samurai. If two of those Keshiks have Indirect Fire and Ranged, they should be able to shell Kyoto with assistance from a seaborne spotter.

    If the other two Keshiks have Indirect Fire and Ranged, the combined fire from the four Keshiks should easily be able to take out 2 Samurai a turn.



    There are three main uses for triremes in the Japanese assault.

    1. To prevent Japanese triremes from smashing your embarked Keshiks to the main Japanese island.
    2. To spot for your Keshiks shelling Kyoto.
    3. To prevent Japanese triremes from killing an embarked Horseman/Pikeman/Swordsman/whatever attempting to seize Kyoto after your Keshiks batter it down to zero.

    Well, you should probably land a Khan with your Keshiks.

    Honestly, I don't remember what unit I used to actually take Kyoto after my Keshiks softened it up.

    I do know that I didn't use meatshields to prevent Samurai from attacking my Keshiks, when I conquered a pre Renaissance Japan.

    Japan is the biggest time sink of that scenario, because your best units (Keshiks) have to operate in conditions they aren't suited for.

    Also, the units (naval combat units) that do speed up the Japanese invasion really can't be used to support other invasions, which makes the ships expensive for the hammers/gold needed to produce them.

    I have successfully invaded Japan after conquering Jin and Green China with only one or two Triremes to support my landed Keshiks, but the invasion is extremely slow going.

    I have been able to invade Japan in fewer turns when I do it after conquering four or five empires, which is when I had enough money to rush buy a Caravel or a Frigate several turns in a row. Hammers/gold at turn 20 are much more precious as the same amount of hammers/gold at turn 60-70.

    It's much less of a pain to seize Kyoto with 5-6 Caravels/Frigates supporting the landed Keshiks than it is with 1-2 Triremes. It's not really the firepower that makes naval combat units useful in the Japanese invasion, it's that these units can sink embarked Pikeman and Samurai units in ONE turn AND can spot for my Keshiks.
     

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