How important is a religion for non-religious victories?

[darkace77450]

Should I be aiming to found a religion even if I'm not shooting for a religious victory?

In Civ5, I always founded a religion and set it up to compliment my chosen victory path. This meant science and food modifiers for science victories, influence and gold modifiers for diplomatic victories, production and happiness for domination, and culture and happiness for culture. I've only played one game of Civ 6 so far, but a cursory glance at beliefs suggests such an approach might not be as beneficial as it was in the previous game. Or at least it doesn't look like sacrificing the production to build an early Holy Site is worth it just for a few beliefs that marginally aid in a non-religious victory.

But even if it's not, my own religious would presumably make staving off the spread of foreign religions. So should I go out of my way to found a religion for defensive purposes when I'm trying to win a science, culture, or domination victory? If the answer to this is "yes", how early should I be looking to build a Holy Site district? And is there any other advice you'd offer a newbie regarding religion? Thanks.

 

[ExodusMe]

In regards to a domination victory....

1) I usually go domination, but wanted to try each victory type in civ 6. As I was completing a game with religious victory I realized how powerful faith can be to purchase units. Given that you can use gold in the same manner I don't think the benefits out-weigh the cons. I have yet to figure out if there is a way to capitalize on this, so maybe someone else can provide an explanation here.

2) Given that you have to prioritize districts based on population count and that a holy site is essential to produce missionaries/apostles and gain the benefits of founding a religion I think it would be hard in the early game, because capturing a few close by cities prior to classical era is so powerful to establishing a good mid-game.

For those reasons I don't think founding a religion is worth it if you are going for a domination victory.

 

[TheGreatSleepyOne]

I'm going to break this down per Win Con.

Science: I place 0 priority on Holy Sites when pursuing a science victory. The exception to this is when I am playing Arabia or Russia. Arabian Holy Sites might as well be Campuses. Russia gets "free" holy sites. In any case, production is the main bottleneck in a Science Win. Efficient science wins also need several Great Engineers and Scientists, so Faith generation helps with securing those. I will not go for faith in a science win unless I am russia or arabia for those reasons.

Domination: Religion is not mandatory for domination but can serve as useful utility. Cities with religion get 1 amenity just for having a religion. You can faith purchase a military with the Theology Government, however, this requires a you to be Russia or focus on holy sites. You don't need to found your own religion to make use of conquered holy sites. Make apostles and hope for the Chaplain (Medic) and Heathen Conversion Promotions. You can heal your units up faster and partially ignore amenity/war weariness with Heathen conversion. Rebels spawn on your city, then you convert them with the apostle and BAM you have more units to throw at the AI.



Culture: Some of the fastest culture wins revolve around religion. I've never pursued that strategy so I can't deliberate on it much. Faith generation helps a lot with Great people and naturalists. And for a culture win there are 2 Great Merchants and 2 Great Scientists that help with tourism. (there might be more).

 

[Victoria]

Culture: Some of the fastest culture wins revolve around religion. I've never pursued that strategy so I can't deliberate on it much. Faith generation helps a lot with Great people and naturalists. And for a culture win there are 2 Great Merchants and 2 Great Scientists that help with tourism. (there might be more).

In Culture there are modifiers of -50% if you found a religion and are trading tourists with a civ of another religion but it is not a huge amount as it only applies to holy citys and religious artefacts.

The religious cultural martyr/reliquaries strategy relies heavily on Kongo or lots of slots for artifacts and a very fast getting of them only really possible with Kandy. So you need a lucky start. The strat will work longer time but in a MP game its harder because the opposition domestic tourists are higher and the players are more savvy against opening borders when they see how much tourism you are generating.

The religious cultural victory depends only early success as enlightenment tends to darken your day. Its doable and the AI is not good at progressing through the civics fast. Saying that the relics may be getting old and dusty but they are still worth something on top of all the other tourism that starts coming around so certianly do-able. Not played it enough to correctly suss.

In SP which most people play there is time to get a religion as well as be cultural and the religion will really help with national parks as they cost religion.

In MP if you see someone as Suze of Kandy early and they have reliquaries then your only real defense is to get a religion quick and start spamming culture and get to enlightenment ASAP

 

[jaegybomb]

Vs AI religion can be pretty much ignored. They prioritize it too much and the opportunity cost isn't worth it. In multiplayer it's far easier to get and the bonuses are helpful. That said even vs AI religion is pretty strong with Russia or Arabia. A Russian theology timing push with cossacks might be the biggest power spike in the game.

 

[joncnunn]

In Civ VI, if you aren't founding a religion yourself, all you really miss out on is founder beliefs. You'll get some other beliefs soon enough from AI spread; it's just going to be what the AI chose rather than you.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

One additional point

Domination...you need to pay close attention to religious victory, to make sure you don't convert yourself to the religious winners religion by taking cities of their religion...so you might need to do some apostle/missionary work against them.

 

[Mr. Shadows]

It's worth pointing out that you don't need a religion to purchase units in Theocracy or GPs any time. Even without trying you're going to build up enough faith to buy quite a bit. The religion itself isn't necessary in order to make use of faith so it probabaly isn't worth it unless you have bonuses that make it easier.

 

[Adooombray]

I find the religious bonuses crucial to any victory condition, some of them are very good. I tend to favor Feed the World for huge food bonuses. on abundant resources setting the +1 hammer to mined resource is huge early game. You can also use the faith:units thing to appear weak and bait a war dec by a neighbor then go around to all your cities and insta produce an army the AI wouldn't dare war dec against. Also, if you put Kongo in the player slot directly underneath yours, you are practically guaranteed a friendly neighbor if you get your missionaries to him first

The AI does hyper focus on religion, but i find a sweep with an inquisitor or two every era or so is good enough. If you can get the martyr ability the AI will happilly provide you with relics for tourism left and right

 

[Ottoman player]

I have a related question. I play on Emperor for what it's worth:

If I'm not playing for a religion I usually go for the God King policy just to get the pantheon. Is that a good strat vs using urban planning then whatever better policy cards you unlock?

 

[jaegybomb]

I think generally you are better off with the production and hoping you find a religious city state.

 

[Kroman]

If you decide to go for ANY victory condition other than religious, you have to be extremely careful and frequently check the status of religious wars.
I recently lost an extremely strong deity game as Germany... I could actually take any victory easilly but religion, but... Scythia had all civs but one, and suddenly I realized there is nothing I can do to stop them. All my cities, which had a holy site, were theirs, so no religious battle. Military was no good, as their apostles were running everywhere and some other civs were producing them as well...and even passive spread would eventually lead them to victory... The last civ to convert was landlocked on the other end of the world (I was converted already).
Ended in t230 loss, being strongly ahead in everything but religion.

Lesson learned - don't always assume that other religious civs will put up a fight against the leader. Since then I always make sure to have a city with holy site of different religion, just in case. As stated previously, conquest will not always do you any good in this case...

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

It's worth pointing out that you don't need a religion to purchase units in Theocracy or GPs any time. Even without trying you're going to build up enough faith to buy quite a bit. The religion itself isn't necessary in order to make use of faith so it probabaly isn't worth it unless you have bonuses that make it easier.

I agree with this 100%. It seems especially effective building Musketmen or Conquistadors or later units via the huge amounts of Faith one can generate. Focusing on Religious CSs can help a lot to amass more Faith. Choosing beliefs that generate 2 Faith per turn per Quarry helps generate even more Faith.

Beliefs that generate food are really great; building most religious building adds food, which allows more citizens to work hammer (gear) tiles.

 

[jollywonk]

Can anyone confirm that if a military unit kills your Apostle with Martyr, you do not get a Relic? The wording of Martyr clearly specifies the Apostle must die in Theological Combat, but I thought I'd check.

I find religion useful for supporting domination victories (and I'm warming up to Theology over Merchant Republic now that trade routes were fixed), less so for tourism victories. Yerevan and Kandy are significant enough to drive your religion picks (Reliquaries) and change strategy to push early religious tourism, but in their absence the window before Enlightenment is too small to Relic Farm.

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

I can confirm that when an Apostle with the Martyr promotion is killed via a military unit no Relic is generated. Relic generation requires destruction of your Martyr promoted Apostole in Theological Combat.

 

[jollywonk]

I can confirm that when an Apostle with the Martyr promotion is killed via a military unit no Relic is generated. Relic generation requires destruction of your Martyr promoted Apostole in Theological Combat.

Thank you! Martyr is fun in single player and clearly not realistically useful in multiplayer.

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

The Theocracy government is extremely powerful. It allows buying any land military unit via Faith in any city (no Holy Site or religious buildings are required). This means you can settle a city and build any military unit there the same turn and every turn thereafter until Faith is depleted.

No special focus on Faith or Religion is needed. Neither is founding a Religion required. Building Holy Sites with strong adjacency and the Religious buildings will of course generate more Faith, but again not really needed.

Choosing a Pantheon belief that generates Faith will be helpful. I like the belief that generates 2 Faith per turn per Quarry, since the maps I have played had plenty of Stone and some Marble. Another good belief that might be better is the one that generates Faith equal to the chop/harvest yield. There are others like getting 50 Faith from capturing a Barbarian Encampment; one could milk this in unsettled areas that spawn these camps.

An AI will likely convert your cities to its Religion. You will then keep your Patheon belief, but also take advantage of whatever beliefs the founder of this Religion chose.

 

[jollywonk]

Faith buying is pretty awesome. You can faith buy a unit for 1.7 faith per 1 hammer. If you run the double faith yield from buildings card, you actually make 1 faith worth more than 1 hammer (in terms of buying military units). And it's on-demand, requires no unit maintenance upkeep vs amassing an army, allows for a sudden surge or timing push, etc. You would only run that card if you've built a bunch of holy sites and lots of buildings, but it's compelling, and not hard to get faith above 100 per turn. Or you could go without religion and Holy Sites but stockpile pantheon-based faith-generation for a critical time.

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

Agreed! I've gotten Faith up to 250 per turn with a strong focus on Faith generation (most cities have a Holy Site and all religious buildings; 6 envoys to all religious CSs; selected as many faith generating civics as possible). If you can make it to Reformed Church and Theocracy nothing can stop you from taking over the world.

 

[Lord Yanaek]

If i plan to use faith to purchase units for a Renaissance rush i think i would try to get my own religion and take Feed the World or Religious Community. If i have to build Holy Sites everywhere, at least let them be useful to my city. Feed the world allows you to work 3 more mines (+6 food) while Religious Community makes the district almost pay-up for itself in housing (you need 3 more population for another district and already have 2).