How long do you stay in bureaucracy?

[brothatactics]

In my games, I am finding that i generally stay in bureaucracy for most if not the whole game. I wonder if this is optimal. In what situations do you guys leave bureaucracy in your games?

 

[Cusanus]

In what situations do you guys leave bureaucracy in your games?

For the first big gunpowder war.
Let's draft! And then, let's draft some more.

Or else, until I get Democracy. I then usually make one big switch from Bureaucratic Republic to Free Speech Democracy. (Other changes may be included.)

 

[mfie]

For drafting (rifles) and when universal suffrage free speech gives me more commerce than bureacracy.

 

[madscientist]

I stay in either

1) All game depending on the state of the capital

2) Until LIberalism is alot of other cities are well cottaged and adopt Free Speech

3) Until Nationalism because I want to draft or the cheap civic is preferred to limited Bureacracy/FS.

Occasionally I will revert at the end to use ths capital as a space part producer.

 

[Cusanus]

In general, I think Bureaucracy is really good, but both more modern legal civics are usually even better.

Unless I have an Oxford+academy super research capital, it doesn't usually take me long to switch to one of them, once they become available.

If I am spiritual, I might sometimes switch back to bureaucracy just to finish one important wonder in the capital faster.

 

[BigTime]

Until free speech is better empire-wide or I need to train/draft some units. (vassalage/nationhood) Sometimes later in the game I don't bother with vassalage.

 

[brothatactics]

I guess I never really thought about using free speech much, since I considered it more of a cultural civic. A decent civ will probably have at least a few very nice cottaged cities where the free speech bonus will overtake the bureau bonus.

 

[vanatteveldt]

I think it really depends on map size, right?

Because I have a fairly old computer (and wine-induced overhead) and limited attention span (and wine-induced overhead) I play smallish maps. This means my capital is relatively important, hence buro relatively good. On huge maps I imagine buro to be quickly overtaken.

 

[Groogaroo]

In what situations do you guys leave bureaucracy in your games?

If I'm going culture, as soon as Lib is in!

But generally I've found the higher up in level I play the more & earlier tend I to cottage, Free speech suddenly becomes more attractive when you have alot of towns empire wide that are going to benefit.

Also, not all capitals are suitable for cottaging and may only benefit from the hammer bonus. In this situation I would swap into Freespeech sooner as I never really make much use of the hammer bonus.

 

[dirtyparrot]

Depends on the size of the empire, how good the capital is, how many cottages are mature, etc. Generally, the capital is your best city so I'll often times stay there most if not all the game after teching CS.

 

[CivMcNut]

I just got done playing a game where Washington asked me to adopt Free Speech as a diplomatic favor, so that got me out of Bureaucracy there.

Like people have been posting, whenever your Secondary commerce cities have lots of towns, on a standard map, it is time to switch and get some increased commerce. It goes well with emancipation and universal sufferage, which promote cottage growth and give you that hammer for each town. Towns become a real treasure with Free Speech.

Sometimes the UN vote will bump you out of bureaucracy against your will.

 

[Trev]

I stay there most of game, sometimes whole game, particularly if I can build pyramids. In this situation I settle all specialists including generals in city and farm/mine whole city for production and GP points and build a majority of military units in the city.

 

[JammerUno]

^bureau doesn't do anything for specs, or shrine income, or corp income.

Bureau does make Oxford and an academy 50% stronger, basically giving you a 300% science boost on all commerce from the city. With a good cottage site, I usually stay in bureau all game long, if the site isn't producing enough commerce, there's no incentive for it and I switch to nationhood.

 

[Orzio]

Almost allways when I get liberlism or shortly after. I willl almost allways go to war with rifelmans/cavalery and than I prefer frree speech since 1 I will get lots of citys with towns and 2 the extra culture helps in newely caputred citys. I also like some extra culture preassure on my neigbors to make the war easier. So basicly I stay in it until I get free speech if I am not playing an occ ofc-

 

[Zexx]

Depends heavily on what my capital is good for;
If it's got the production to merit Heroic Epic, then I tend to stick in Bereau longer, and pump out more 1/ turn military units there.
If it's more of a tons of cottages and food site, I tend to switch to FS or Nationhood asap - typically around 700AD?

 

[mirthadir]

I only stay in B until another civic is more profitable.

I mean seriously. Am I running a ton of AW priests outside a cottaged cap; or do I have cottages everywhere? Draft war or no draft war? Do I need vasselage for a 2nd (3rd) promo (e.g. there is no religion on this island or I'm Cha and want a 3rd insta heal)? FE/EE or no?

Some games I come out ahead by going Vassalage the whole game, some games I take FS before B is even an option (bulbing up through theo -> lib). Let's not even think about civic cycling.

 

[JTMacc99]

I only stay in B until another civic is more profitable.

I mean seriously. Am I running a ton of AW priests outside a cottaged cap; or do I have cottages everywhere? Draft war or no draft war? Do I need vasselage for a 2nd (3rd) promo (e.g. there is no religion on this island or I'm Cha and want a 3rd insta heal)? FE/EE or no?

Some games I come out ahead by going Vassalage the whole game, some games I take FS before B is even an option (bulbing up through theo -> lib). Let's not even think about civic cycling.

Yep. That's pretty much my answer. I go into it when it makes sense for the game and come out of it when it makes sense for the game. MOSTLY, I like to run big capitalistic economies, going into Free everything and Emancipation at my earliest convenience. However, some games put me in a completely different situation. Heck, I just played a whole game in Monarchy and not-Free Religion because I had to keep Joao on my side in order not to lose a stinkin' AP diplomatic victory. Monarchy! All the way into the modern era!

By the way, there are some things that make Bureaucracy very tempting to leave in place, even if you do get more commerce from Free Speech. For example, I had a game where I captured a second capital city fairly early and a third around 1000 AD. With all of that great land and cities, I went ahead and built the Ironworks in my capital that game. Between that, the Shale Plant (plus the crazy event that gave me +4 hammers per coal plant) and Bureacracy, I was building wonders faster than other cities could build a granary.

 

[Wodan]

I plan from early game what my capitol is going to be doing, and know about when and how I'm going to go into and possibly out of Bureaucracy. It's not an ongoing decision point. Sure, there are reasons my plans may change (such as getting into a tough war which changes my planned empire dynamics) but by and large I know what I'm going to do.

This is all tied in with decisions about economy... whether I'm going to be running a SE, CE, etc etc.

 

[bestbrian]

For as long as it takes before it's benefits are overshadowed by something better.

 

[champ82]

Current game – Inca – Oxford, Globe Theater, mad food, cottage capital. My neighbor is not in free speech. I might stay in bureaucracy all game.