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How many European Civilizations!?!

How many European civs out of 18

  • 4 or Less

    Votes: 11 9.6%
  • 5 to 6

    Votes: 36 31.3%
  • 7 to 8

    Votes: 30 26.1%
  • 9 or More

    Votes: 38 33.0%

  • Total voters
    115

Crayton

King
Joined
Jul 18, 2004
Messages
698
Location
FLORIDA
Civilization 3 had 12(13) civilizations with a European capital. That is 39%(41%) of all civs. (Austria/Vienna) was the 32nd civ.

Civilization 4 has only 18 civilizations. We already know what civilizations are in. If you were given control of which civs get in: How many would you place in Europe?
Which Ones?
 
Well, we know already they added France, Rome, Germany, 'England', Russia, Greece, Spain, and 'America'....No Netherlands, Portugal, any scandinavia country, or Byzantines.

But as long as France, Rome and Greece in, that's good enough for me...They cover most of Europe's entire history, all you'd need is Greece to cover the ultra ancient times, Rome the middle (including Byzantine times) and France for the rest and you'd have the entire history of Europe covered.

Before anyone says something like this isn't right...just remember, it's the same that they did for all the other cultures outside of Europe....
 
But as long as France, Rome and Greece in, that's good enough for me...They cover most of Europe's entire history, all you'd need is Greece to cover the ultra ancient times, Rome the middle (including Byzantine times) and France for the rest and you'd have the entire history of Europe covered.

Location: Michigan USA

I rest my case...
Glad though that the Civ Developers have a more intelligent view of history, so Spain and Germany and England are available players. Portugal should be in as well actually...also worldruler once.
 
rome,greece,germany,france,england and portugal or spain makes the team complete.i voted for 5 to 6..however i like vikings and consider them as hot prospect for the future, they must wait for expansion.
 
Greece, Rome, Denmark (for the Scandinavians), Spain & England for sure. What about the Holy Roman Empire for Germany rather than more a more modern version? France could be best represented by Napoleon perhaps. What about more Eastern Europeans, like the Hungarians for example, and the Russians under Ivan the Terrible?
 
Well, 1/3 (or 6) is enough for beginning. This will show significance of Europe in history, but will left space for other civs. But, obviously, I am not deciding that. They done pretty good job selecting them.
 
Look, there are 5 culture groups. African, Asian, Mediterreanean, American, Middle Eastern, and European. That means 1/6 of the civs should be european. 1/6 of 18 is 3, so only a maximum of 4 or 5 should be allowed. I think it would be rascist to allow 10 european civs and 1 african civ.
 
I personally heve compiled a list of 30 or so civilizations I think give enough coverage of the world as to be sufficent. Of that list 14 are European (I included the Romans and Greeks as everyone seems to be considering anything on the continent of Europe as European). This list includes: 1. Portugal 2. Spain 3. France 4. Celtica 5. Romanium 6. Greece 7. Germany 8. Scandinavia 9. Hungary 10. Poland 11. England 12. the Netherlands 13. Byzantium and 14. Russia
 
A few things to say:
1. Where will the game be sold? In Somalia? In Viet Nam? Or in England? In America? In France?
2. The different empires in Africa and Asia where bigger (area controlled) because there were less poeple (try to have a big city in the middle of the Sahara or the Gobi). Europe was denser. Look at a civ3 world map with reall starting locations: Europe gets lots of OCC civ, China gets dozens of cities, Mongol too, Zulus got half a continent, etc.
3. What do you know the best? The history of Mali or the history of France?
4. The game is made by Occidentals for Occidentals, and if the game was to be sold in Africa, well lets go Mali, Somalia, and all the other Africa empire I don't know about.
I voted 7-8, for these:
Greece, Rome, France, England, Russia, Spain and Germany.
@ Nyvin: France to represent Europe from Middle Ages to now???? No. What do you do with Victorian time? And Spain? Didn't it lead most of the Americas? Germans have brought Rome down (well, not necessarly the same as the next ones), started Protestantism, they have built beautiful cathedrals, conquered most of Europe (alone against every one), and lots of other things I don't remember. Russia is the largest country in the world, and called Russia or USSR, it must be in the game in some way (and not as a barbarian camp)
Little question: Are Ottomans counted in the European civ?
 
mastertyguy said:
@ Nyvin: France to represent Europe from Middle Ages to now???? No. What do you do with Victorian time? And Spain? Didn't it lead most of the Americas? Germans have brought Rome down (well, not necessarly the same as the next ones), started Protestantism, they have built beautiful cathedrals, conquered most of Europe (alone against every one), and lots of other things I don't remember. Russia is the largest country in the world, and called Russia or USSR, it must be in the game in some way (and not as a barbarian camp)
Little question: Are Ottomans counted in the European civ?


As for the Victorian times, all I can say is if Britain didn't do it, it would've happened anyway, it just would've been some other European power. Britain establishing it's empire isn't really anything amazing, it had to happen with some country in western europe, and Britain had the english channel and Napolean...enough said.

Without France, England wouldn't exist in the way it does now (even the language wouldn't have developed like it did) You can't say the same is true with vice versa. Therefore France is a more entitled country to represent European history. The same would go for Spain and Russia, if they didn't do it, it would've happened by someone else anyway. I guess you'd have validity with Germany, but you can't have France and Germany and not have the rest though.
 
I don't really see why France is more representative than England. England's peak was under Victori, but wasn't bad earlier. They have been the #1 sea power until the Cold War. To me, France and England have to be in the game, as well as Germany. Russia is an important European civ, but the main reason it has to be in the game is that they are a main power in Europe AND Asia. For Spain, they were lucky, but provoked their luck a little bit. Here it is true, it could have been anybody, but it was them, and only them, who did it.
 
The 'someone else would have done it' is a crazy arguement, how else can you judge a civ apart from by what it did? Beating somone else to an achievement is the whole point - would you say and building a nuke is a decidedly mediocre achievement 'cos it's got to happen sometime?

Anyway... back to the topic. I think currently suggested levels of european civs is about right (the big 6/7 + some Scandinavian representation). I think Europe should get as many civs as are worthy of inclusion, any imposed limit is discrimination against Europe. Either a civ is worthy on its own merits or it isn't.

However I readily admit that I want diversity with reps for each culture/continent I don't like the idea of artificial constraint. (Although Fireaxis must respond to the market, civ is a game not a simulation)
 
euro civs that are already in: (i am not counting America as one of them)

1. Greece
2. Rome
3. France
4. Germany
5. England
6. Russia
7. Spain

euro civs that could still be added & were in civ3c:

8. Portugal
9. Netherlands (Holland)
10. celts
11. vikings
12. byzantine empire

still more euro civs that can be added for the first time:

13. mayars (hungary)

Imo there are some more, but probably have less of a possibility of being in, eg:
Austria (Germany is already in)
Poland
Serbia
Bulgaria
Sweden

I am not too fond of the celtic civ, and imo the viking civ can become denmark, although i am not too sure if many people would prefer it.
 
Austria is not the same as Germany. Austria is from the Austro-Hungarian Empire, and Germany from Prussia. Those two are different. IMHO, Germany is more important to include than Austria.
 
I'd say a high nimber of euro civs because of two things
1. Audience
and
2. Impact

After all looking at some of the other global impacting parts of the world,

E Asia ('China' unified almost all of it for most of history..althoough 'China' goes by different rulers, it and has been is far more politically unified than 'Germanics' or 'Celtics')

Middle East/N Africa..(well this is the second most represented culture group.. although mostly due to its early interactions/precedence of Europe)

SE Asia..Not as unufied as East Asia but still more than Europe

Americas, Sub Saharan Africa.. both unfortunately got bypassed (the Americas to a much greater degree) just like most of the non European world did to a lesser degree, in the modern age, when Europeans became the first real world powers (mostly from geography, and a bit of luck)

The more closely the game sticks with players wanting real historical feels, the closer they will have to choose from those several European powers that had direct global impact. The more the game goes into reconstructing history, the more they include other powers to illustrate the possibility that inter-African or inter-American conflicts are important for the course of history.
 
Atrebates said:
The 'someone else would have done it' is a crazy arguement, how else can you judge a civ apart from by what it did? Beating somone else to an achievement is the whole point - would you say and building a nuke is a decidedly mediocre achievement 'cos it's got to happen sometime?

Spot on. What more can i add to that. The facts remain England did do it and thats that. With that kinda logic you can start to dismiss many cultures and groups. One thing to keep in mind was an old English policey. It went something along the lines of do not become like them make them like us. Which is why the English language is the most excepted language in the world. Thats quite something. French is actually way down the list (still in the top ten) I found that surprising at first but after looking into it it started to make sence.

Anyway not continent should have an absolute limit on the amount of countries it can have but on the same note every continent should have some representation.

IMO (not in any particular order) if Europe were to only have 5 nations representing them i would choose. Almost one third of the overall nations in the game.


United Kingdom or Britain, England or whatever you would prefere to call it.
Germany again could be used under another name but Germany will suffice.
Spain
Greece
Romans

Hmm the Ottomons do they count as European ? I would still say use a more genric term for them such as The Turks to cover a multitude of there history.

Yes there are obvioues ones missing from that list that im not going to go into that should be included which demonstrates why no limit should be put onto any given continent lets face it would be a struggle with just 10.
 
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