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How many units can a large empire wield?

Discussion in 'Civ5 - General Discussions' started by hardcore_gamer, Sep 11, 2010.

  1. Auncien

    Auncien Prince

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    You know the funny thing is that combat and the number of units under the player's control is totally off of my personal list of concerns about the game. I think the combat system will be absolutely brilliant and fun to use.
     
  2. Herrhals

    Herrhals Warlord

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    This is the only conclusion we can make from this thread.

    to answer the original question (what was it again?!):
    don't know, don't care, doesn't matter
     
  3. Wuddel

    Wuddel Warlord

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    Listen to the Polycast. Jon Schaefer said 40 units is pretty big.
     
  4. Viatrix

    Viatrix Chieftain

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    Yush!

    But I think it's a relevant general concern how large armies people will have. People don't want to get frustrated with too many units. In Civilization IV controlling your airforce was just horribly time-consuming.
     
  5. PawelS

    PawelS Ancient Druid

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    I prefer to have less, but more meaningful units.
     
  6. Schuesseled

    Schuesseled Deity

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    but for what size map, what game speed, etc etc etc.

    Simply won't know till you play for yourself.
     
  7. 12agnar0k

    12agnar0k Emperor

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    We have no idea what Unit Supply does, does it limit number of units that can be built, does it mean having more units than this will incur heavy maintenance fees, I'm sure you can wildly speculate anything. So assuming this to be some kind of upper limit is stepping into guess work.

    If anything, to guess at it, it is a maintenance figure, i.e if you build more than your supply, each additional unit requires twice the maintenance, I could be wrong here, but thats the penatly you have for guessing with no basis on fact.
     
  8. Auncien

    Auncien Prince

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    We know exactly what unit supply does. It is portion of the function used to determine the maximum number of units you can construct (regardless of income or resources).
     
  9. Earthling

    Earthling Deity

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    In the early game, I expect unit numbers to be roughly equivalent to what you'd get in civ4 if it didn't have slavery and forest chopping and you weren't going all out rushing.

    I expect about 100 in late-game on large maps for a player in a solid position. An improvement in numbers over civ4 and maybe things like AI turns get faster, but not really an improvement in micromanagement, could very likely take you more time in civ5, since even a couple hundred units in civ4 really just become more like 4 or 5 stacks.

    Also, this thread wasn't really a spam thread and only certain people trying to spam makes it seem like that. Everyone else's estimates appear to be vastly wrong so the OP starting this thread has actually done a service to point this all out and generate discussion.
     
  10. bjbrains

    bjbrains Man of U-235

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    100? That seems really high based on what we know: Resources limit the quantity of the 'best' units in your army severely, units cost a lot more to produce, and supply will limit the quantity of units in your army. For example, it's fairly certain (on normal since this is from the civlopedia) that infantry cost 300 hammers! Musketmen cost 120. In comparison, Civ 4's musketmen cost 80, and civ 4's infantry cost 140. That's not even getting into the apparent general 'nerf' to the output of most tiles- mined hills give 3 base as opposed to 4, no more workshops, and no drafting/slavery to pump out lots of units quickly using food.
     
  11. Zhahz

    Zhahz PC Gamer

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    I agree. A lower number of intelligently used and higher quality units is more interesting to me than zergling-like spam.

    Shafer discussed this in one of the more recent interviews, and mentioned some number I forget for what you might expect to see for units in game, but he also said that it can vary with map size and other factors a bit.
     
  12. Auncien

    Auncien Prince

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    For the people who are concerned, you're not going to be making 5 or 6 unit armies. if you've got, let's say seven, cities of size 9 which isn't unreasonable to expect during the course of a game, even on a standard map then thats:

    base supply(5) + number of cities(7) + number of citizens(63)

    for a total of 75 units.

    You could easily go higher than that.
     
  13. SeismoGraf

    SeismoGraf Warlord

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    I also guess maintenance will be the main limiting factor; but also production capacity. Whether the videos and screen shots will be "representative" remains to be seen. Maybe they just didn't want to show battlefields filled with many dozens of units, because it could distract from the marketing message.

    Find a way to get filthy rich and rush buy a gigantic military in a few turns. Depending on the ratio of unit cost (respectively rush buy cost) to maintenance cost, maybe it is feasible to have only a small standing army in peaceful times - just save gold and focus on other things.
     
  14. alpaca

    alpaca King of Ungulates

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    More than 40 units or so on one battlefield simply doesn't really work with 1upt. 20 units per side are already a lot, and that's counting reserve units.
     
  15. TLF

    TLF Prince

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    In a turn based game, having a large number of units is problematic without stacks. It's just so difficult to move them any large distance.
    But stacks lack tactical play.

    Small stacks might have been the way to go, unless there is some mechanism for moving multiple units at one time.

    In the few RTS games I play I can just lasso the whole bunch and click on a spot and they all go to that general spot. I then can micro manage them.

    I don't know how a lasso them all and move could be implemented in a TBS game.

    It's always been the main problem with the Civ games for me.

    I also agree that with 1 unit per hex there really is no room on the map in the battle area for all that many units unless there is going to be a forest of units covering the hexes. After 10-15 the units are getting deep.

    If each unit has many more hit points that in civ 4 and the other side has roughly the same number of units, then battles can last a while even with 5-10 units per side.
     
  16. Thorburne

    Thorburne Centurion

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    That really depends! When I broke down the numbers, an army of 40 seems really small. May be find for anything under standard size... but above that, it is a fairly thin army.
     
  17. alpaca

    alpaca King of Ungulates

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    Which numbers did you break down? So far the best I've seen is unit supply. If unit supply works as a cap for your number of units, you get something like 70 units for a somewhat largish nation with 6 cities at 10 pop average. And it has been claimed that you'll rarely, if ever, reach the cap later on, so this puts the actual normal army size well below that figure.

    I also don't reckon you'll get a lot more than 20 or so iron for an empire like that, which means the rest will have to be filler troops fit primarily for garrison and reserve rather than leading an offensive. My initial 20-30 is probably a bit on the low side but 40 doesn't sound so bad.
     
  18. SeismoGraf

    SeismoGraf Warlord

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    Is it still possible to give a unit a movement command that takes several turns to complete? If the answer is yes, then I wonder how the game handles several units of different speeds passing through a narrow area. In many cases units would have to wait or take longer routes.
     
  19. Thorburne

    Thorburne Centurion

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    On a larger map with a potentially wider empire, that will be a lot of space to protect and you will need sizable forces that can quickly reach any breach point for a possible invasion. Plus, you will want to have a number of units available as strike forces for your own invasion. While, you could use all of your defenders, that leaves your cities wide open from the other side while you are out conquering. Plus, if you consider unit type configuration... you have to be sure that each force (defender or strike) has a good mix of the different types (at least 2 or 3 of each) so that you can counter whatever your oponent may throw at you. That can add up quickly!
     
  20. Schuesseled

    Schuesseled Deity

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    I think a big consideration to consider.... would be if workers apply to the unit cap.

    Because then a 75 limit would be more like

    40 military and 35 workers.

    (i build a lot of workers in my civ games.)

    Another thing to consider is that just because you have 40 military units doesn't mean you'll be fielding all of them, a large number of units would have to be kept behind to defend other parts of your empire.
     

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