How many Wonders are too much Wonders?

[Zegangani]

Not a real question, but would having an enormous amount of Wonders in the Game reduce their Uniqueness?
Sure, from the Graphics Perspective the more Wonders we have the merrier, but from the Gameplay Effects Perspective it would be a real challenge to come up with unique effects for each Wonder that are actually useful and good.

Anyway, I have some, probably, good (and bad) News for you Wonder Lovers and Mod users:
Good News: I recently got help from someone who helps me with making Models for some Game Assets for 4XP, but I also intend to make some myself too, which means we will also be making New World Wonders for Civ6 (also a Reason why it's taking longer than expected to finish the first Pack).

Bad News: Not really bad, but...; Eventhough Wonders don't add much to the Asset Limit (each counts as 1 Asset, Map Resources and Improvements have even more assets!), making a Wonder takes quite some Time (modeling, adding materials, and the process of importing it into the Game (this latter is very cumbersome and nerve wracking tbh)), which means there is a certain amount of Wonders we can make realistically in our free Time (till we lose interest in the Game or Civ7 is on the Horizon...etc). I just got to know that Wonders practically don't affect the asset limit at all, if I knew that before I would have started working on them much earlier, and now my Hands are mostly tied to coding .

What that all means is that we have to decide which Wonders to make and which to dismiss, I've already decided for some that we will be working on, but there are a bunch of Wonder Slots that I wanted to leave the option to fill them to you.

I was trying to focus on Wonders in Continents/Regions that are underrepresented, like Africa and America, but I also want the Number of Wonders to be balanced in every Era (maybe less in early Game and very late Game). Although we have an overrepresented Europe and Asia (due to mods) in terms of Wonders, however doing some Research, I have to say that the other regions in the World can't compete much in terms of Wondrous Wonders (worth having in the Game) and their amount built with the ones in Europe and Asia. And in these latter Continents you will notice certain Countries/Regions offer way more Wonders than their Neighbours. Ex: Italy, Germany, Russia, England and Spain are the big Builders in Europe and China, India and Japan are the big Ones in Asia.

As a Reference here are the current Wonders in the Game (including modded ones):
- Europe: 18 Firaxis Wonders + 9 modded ones = 27
- Middle East*: 7 Firaxis Wonders + 1 modded = 8
- Asia: 9 Firaxis Wonders + 9 modded ones = 18
- Africa*: 7 Firaxis Wonders + 1 modded = 8
- North America: 4 Firaxis Wonders + 2 modded ones = 6
- Central & South America: 6 Firaxis Wonders + 1 modded = 7
- Oceania & Antarctic: 2 Firaxis Wonders.
* I'm counting Egypt Wonders into Africa here and not Middle East.

And here are the infos on how many Wonders are available in each Era:
- Ancient: 7 Firaxis Wonders + 7 modded ones = 10
- Classical: 12 Firaxis Wonders + 2 modded ones = 14
- Medieval: 10 Firaxis Wonders + 4 modded ones = 14
- Rennaissance: 8 Firaxis Wonders + 5 modded ones = 13
- Industrial: 8 Firaxis Wonders + 1 modded ones = 9
- Modern: 4 Firaxis Wonders + 4 modded ones = 4
- Atomic: 6 Firaxis Wonders + 2 modded ones = 6
- Information: 0 Firaxis Wonders + 1 modded ones = 1

You can clearly notice the lack of Wonders in the late Game, and Mid Game should also offer some more Wonders.

The Wonders I listed down here are all Wonders which are suggested by CivFanatis in a Thread and/or another, there were much more (ofc) but I sorted out all Wonders that I didn't found interesting or feel eager to make, so all these Wonders I'm interested in making them (excluding the Ones I've already chosen, like The Registan and Red Fort for example), and I will leave the Option of which One to you:

Note: I think you also should now that I try to choose Wonders that aren't very similar (like Forts, Castles, Pagodas, Churches, Cathedrals, Mosques...etc), and I also prefer to limit the amount of Wonders I pick from Wonder builder Civs/Countries/Regions. After each Region/Country Title there is "(n)" which indicates how much Wonders I want to pick from that part of the world.

- Northern Europe (1): Heddal Stave Church (Norway) - Swallow Nest/Palace in Kolomenskoe (Russia) - Trelleborg (Slagelse, Denmark)

- North-West Europe (1): The Crystal Palace (England) - skellig michael (Irland)

- Central & Western Europe(1): Belvedere (Vienna, Austria) - Atomium/Palais de Justice (Belgium) - Kölner Dom/Dresden Frauenkirche/Elbphilharmonie/Marktkirche, Wiesbaden (Germany) - CERN (Switzerland)

- Southern Europe (1): Acropolis of Athens/Palace of Knossos/ (Greece) - Pena Palace (Portugal) - The Giralda/Maestranza, Seville/El Escorial (Spain) - Circus Maximus/Doge's Palace/Pantheon, Rome/Sacra di San Michele (Italy)

- Africa(3): Serapeum of Alexandria/Karnak Temple Complex (Egypt) - Great Mosque of Djenne (Mali) - Chefchaouen/Hassan II Mosque/Hassan Tower (Morocco) - African Renaissance Monument (Senegal)

- Middle East (1): Atlantis The Palm/Palm Island (UAE) - Ishtar Gate/Nineveh/White Temple and Ziggurat of Uruk (Iraq) - Citadel of Aleppo/Umayyad Mosque (Syria) - Sana’a City/Marib Dam/Al Saleh Mosque (Yemen)

- Eastern Europe/Western Asia (1): Tatev Monastery (Armenia) - Svetitskhoveli Cathedral (Georgia) - Geghard/Monastery of Saint Thaddeus/Noravank - Holy Trinity Cathedral of Tbilisi (Georgia)

- Central Asia (1): Great Mosque of Herat (Afghanistan) - Hawa Mahal/Lotus Temple/Swaminarayan Akshardham (India) - Badshahi Mosque/Faisal Masjid (Pakistan)

- East Asia (2): Grand Lisboa/Wujin Lotus Conference Center/Summer Palace/Old Summer Palace (China) - Mozu Tombs/Byōdō-in/Osaka Castle/Himeji Castle (Japan) - Shwedagon Paya/Shwezigon Pagoda/Mandalay Palace/Kuthodaw Pagoda (Myanmar/Burma) - Gyeongbokgung (South Korea)

- Oceania(1): Great Mosque of Central Java (Indonesia) - Gardens by the Bay (Singapore) - Nan Madol (FS of Micronesia) - Puʻuhonua o Hōnaunau National Historical Park (Hawaii)

- North America (2): Château Frontenac/Centre Block (Canada) - El Capitolio (Cuba) - Palacio de Bellas Artes/Pyramid of the Sun (Mexico) - Brooklyn Bridge/Central Park/One World Trade Center/Walt Disney World/West Point (USA)

- Central & South America (2): Chan Chan/Caral/Moray, Inca ruin (Peru) - Kuhikugu (The Lost City of Z)/ Theatro Municipal, Rio de Janeiro (Brazil) - Las Lajas Shrine/Museo El Castillo (Colombia) - Tazumal (El Salvador) - Saint Peter and Paul Cathedral, Paramaribo (Suriname)

(**) The Wonders in Italique are my personal favourite ones.

I don't know if we can hold onto this - I won't call it Promise - Plan of releasing +20 Wonders by the end of 4XP, but we will do our best to achieve that. And to save some Time and effort, I think we won't make detailed Wonder Animations, but something like the Yellow Crane Tower Animation (Mod - Preview) would suffice I think (it's the completed Wonder that we want to stare at after all ). This way we might be able to make more Wonders.

You can suggest other Wonders if you want (I certainly haven't stumbled over every Wonder in the World), if you think that Wonder(s) is worth having in the Game. But, please Guys, don't suggest Buildings with the Brutal Modern Architecture ! I can only bear a few of them, and I've already chosen some, but for Gameplay Design purpuses rather than Aesthetics. Thanks!

 

[Xandinho]

I love wonders, so for me the more wonders the game has the better. Ideally, I think the game could have between 60 and 70 wonders, and city-states could compete to build them. The only problem is that having too many wonders would make them lose their wonderful aspects. Some might have quite weak and worthless bonuses, like half of the current Civ6 wonders.

 

[Zegangani]

Exactly. I think the best way to have more Wonders in the Game while not losing their Uniquenes and Flavor, is to have a Wonder Picker for some mutually exclusive Wonders that have same Effects.

 

[Zaarin]

Too many wonders? Nonsense. We need all the wonders. In my empire. At once.

Western Europe/East Asia

I think you have these backwards.

 

[Zegangani]

I think you have these backwards.

Not in a Civ Game

 

[mitsho]

A few thoughts:

- From a gameplay perspective, it depends on the map size and number of players, no?
- If they take up a whole tile like in Civ6, big empires (and players that can run a big map) are in advantage.
- If they have such strict placing requirements as in civ6, the wonder race gets less racey but more "yeah, I fulfill everything, I can build it." Should wonders be competitive?
- Should wonders be available to all victory paths - or be a focus of one (culture/tourism)? I strongly advocate for the first option.
- In that sense then, maybe not all wonders need to be hard built by production, maybe some could be an award for doing something really well.
- Maybe thus the perfect amount of wonders should go by victory types and era, so that there are 2-4 available for each "theme" at the same time.

 

[Zegangani]

Interesting and reasonable Thoughts Mitsho,

- From a gameplay perspective, it depends on the map size and number of players, no?
- If they take up a whole tile like in Civ6, big empires (and players that can run a big map) are in advantage.

Couple that with Game Speed, if it's epic or above then you will have plenty of Time to build lots of Wonders, if it's faster than Normal then you have to set priorities.

- If they have such strict placing requirements as in civ6, the wonder race gets less racey but more "yeah, I fulfill everything, I can build it." Should wonders be competitive?

I don't want their placing requirements to be very restrictive, I may also loosen a little bit the Ones of the Game too. And to prevent AI from taking advantage of that while also improving the "Wonder Race", I was thinking of adding a Wonder Claiming Mod, in which you have to gather Wonder Points when building Districts, Buildings and Improvements (not all, Farms don't add WP) and when you have enough WP you can claim any Wonder that's available for you to claim (if you already have researched the Tech/Civic needed). People seem to love Great People and how you compete with other Players to claim them, which requires a little of Strategy, I think it would be a good Idea to have something similar with Wonders, but without doing it the same way as GP, eg. building Buildings that acumulate certain GPP.

Another Thing I was thinking of is, giving each Player the chance to claim One Wonder in each Era, so Others can't build it. But I suppose Players ahead in the Trees will take a little advantage of this.

- Should wonders be available to all victory paths - or be a focus of one (culture/tourism)? I strongly advocate for the first option.

If we would design the Wonders thematically to their IRL use, then most Wonders would be religious, militaristic and be a (sorta) manifistation of a Culture, but all Wonders help with Tourism. I don't think they should be tied to certain Victories, they should help you in multile Ways, otherwise many of them would be redundant when going for certain Victories, and many are even useless if the RNG Map didn't present you enough Floodplains or Marches for example. So perhaps they should have 2 Bonuses?

- In that sense then, maybe not all wonders need to be hard built by production, maybe some could be an award for doing something really well.

That's a great Idea! The Ideologies in Civ V awarded the first Player to adopt an Ideology to build a certain Wonder, it would be neat to have similar things in Civ6. But I guess we should refrain from things that award Players ahead in the Tech/Civic Trees.

FYI: I think I failed to clarify what I actually was asking from you in this Thread, which isn't to discuss the Uniqueness and usefulness of Wonders if we had lots of them (but you can keep the discussion, it's always nice and interesting to discuss these kind of things), the main purpose of the Thread is to ask you of which Wonders from the list above you want to have the most, so I'm leaving the choice to you to decide which Wonder from each Region I should be working on to mod into the Game.

 

[mitsho]

I don't think they should be tied to certain Victories, they should help you in multile Ways, otherwise many of them would be redundant when going for certain Victories, and many are even useless if the RNG Map didn't present you enough Floodplains or Marches for example. So perhaps they should have 2 Bonuses?

Ah well, that was just a suggestion for a rough categorization to get a rough balance. Don't overthink it. "Naval" and "desert-based" could be other categories I like your other ideas and the wonders claiming mod could be good.

That's a great Idea! The Ideologies in Civ V awarded the first Player to adopt an Ideology to build a certain Wonder, it would be neat to have similar things in Civ6. But I guess we should refrain from things that award Players ahead in the Tech/Civic Trees.

I was rather thinking that "playing militarily" should give you access to a wonder that helps your military. If production (and technology) is always the key to it, you won't build many wonders in most games where you don't emphasize it. And some wonders could have ways to unlock them that are counterintuitive: An economic wonder that is only available to civs that overextended themselves for example

FYI: I think I failed to clarify what I actually was asking from you in this Thread, which isn't to discuss the Uniqueness and usefulness of Wonders if we had lots of them (but you can keep the discussion, it's always nice and interesting to discuss these kind of things), the main purpose of the Thread is to ask you of which Wonders from the list above you want to have the most, so I'm leaving the choice to you to decide which Wonder from each Region I should be working on to mod into the Game.

Oh you got me there completely. To be honest, as soon as I see a list of wonders I just zone out, any choice is good for me, there's no wrong and right here. There are countless options in this world and I feel you should chose the ones you like to do. That's why I didn't read that part.

That said, from your list, Crystal Palace seems nice as it would be very visually unique, as well as the African Renaissance Monument and the Hassan II Mosque, the Ma'arib Dam and the Singaporean Gardens by the Bay would be very nice to look at. From my personal list, I always suggest the "Gotthard Tunnel" as a wonder (the Industrial era one), though to be honest, it isn't that visually stunning from the outside ;-)

 

[Zegangani]

Ah well, that was just a suggestion for a rough categorization to get a rough balance. Don't overthink it. "Naval" and "desert-based" could be other categories I like your other ideas and the wonders claiming mod could be good.

I get your Idea .

I was rather thinking that "playing militarily" should give you access to a wonder that helps your military. If production (and technology) is always the key to it, you won't build many wonders in most games where you don't emphasize it. And some wonders could have ways to unlock them that are counterintuitive: An economic wonder that is only available to civs that overextended themselves for example

That would for sure make for an interesting Wonder System. I like that Idea.

Oh you got me there completely. To be honest, as soon as I see a list of wonders I just zone out, any choice is good for me, there's no wrong and right here. There are countless options in this world and I feel you should chose the ones you like to do. That's why I didn't read that part.

Same as me, that's why I couldn't decide myself but leave the option to you . (There are too many of them soo I couldn't make a Poll)

That said, from your list, Crystal Palace seems nice as it would be very visually unique, as well as the African Renaissance Monument and the Hassan II Mosque, the Ma'arib Dam and the Singaporean Gardens by the Bay would be very nice to look at. From my personal list, I always suggest the "Gotthard Tunnel" as a wonder (the Industrial era one), though to be honest, it isn't that visually stunning from the outside ;-)

Yea, Crystal palace would look Amazing as a Wonder. I have considered many Bridges (like Viaduc de Millau, France) and also the Gotthard Tunnel, but there is no way to make them look good in the Game. Unfortunately there is no way to make Bridges between Land Tiles more than 1 coast/lake tile away from each other.

 

[Hellenism Salesman]

- If they have such strict placing requirements as in civ6, the wonder race gets less racey but more "yeah, I fulfill everything, I can build it."

To expand on this, as building wonders shifted away from a race, it's shifted more toward planning. Their high production cost and placement requirements limits the number of participants in the race and makes building wonders more of an individual decision. You're no longer asking questions like "Can I build it faster than the other players?" but instead "Where should I build this wonder? Should I hard-build it or use a Great Engineer? Will building this be worth the investment?"

I'm not really one to say which direction is better (I've never even played Civ V...), but I will say that I do appreciate the strategic thought wonder planning provokes. Though, I do wish that the easier placement requirements weren't so general and the harder ones weren't so environment-dependent (*cough cough* Great Zimbabwe...). My preference is to have every wonder placement requirement be like Biosphere's: specific but not too specific, and it requires something you have control over (building a Neighborhood).

 

[CritterCipher]

One advantage of having a big wonder roster would be that the list of wonders that are available to build in an individual game could vary randomly between games, like how the City-States and Natural Wonders can vary. That way things like "Stonehenge Rush" wouldn't become fixed constants for AI behavior or human players' strategy. Instead, there'd be more of a need to adjust your plans dynamically.

Also, I dislike Civ 6's terrain-based restrictions on wonder placement. In my experience, a significant portion of the game's wonders would end up never being built, seemingly because the AI players didn't have any places to build them.

 

[AlexM29]

In my opinion there should be fewer wonders, they should be more difficult to build, but each wonder should provide massive advantages. There shouldn't be any wonders which are just fodder. Building each wonder should feel like a massive achievement. Wonders should fit with what your civilization is doing. For example, no flat land civilization would build Maccu Piccu in a remote city just because that remote city had a mountain. No civilization that was landlocked for centuries and zero navy would build the venetian arsenal because they got one coastal city. Wonders get built because they become a part of the fabric of a society. I have no issue with the terrain requirements for certain wonders, but I think what should be added is certain requirements to get any given wonder. For example, Ruhr Valley can only be built if you have at least 15 or 20 (the numbers are arbitrary and can be balanced, just meant to be an example) mines across your empire. The Venetian Arsenal should only be built if you have built at least 10 ships in your empire. The rewards should be massive though. For example, Ruhr Valley should modify all mines across your empire, instead of just one city. Or Venetian Arsenal should grant you the ability to upgrade your naval units one era ahead of the most advanced naval unit you have researched. Alhambra should be unlocked if you have been successful in war. For example, X number of cities conquered. But the benefit could be a free promotion to every military unit in your empire in addition to its current bonuses. Angkor Wat, being that it is a religious monument, should require the player to at least have founded a religion and be producing X amount of faith per turn in the city is being built. The bonus could be a massive boost to theological combat and/or make your cities 2-3 times as hard to convert by other religions. It shouldn't be that the only impediment to building literally any wonder is having the right location for it. Location should still play a part, but a world wonder should be next step of your unfolding strategy. A world wonder should be difficult to get and should be balanced as the tipping point for steamrolling your strategy. Basically, no wonder should be attainable before turns 80-100. Your civilization should build its sense of identity before it starts building a world wonder. Then once you got the ball rolling, the wonder should skyrocket your strategy. The later a wonder becomes available, the more powerful it should be to make up for the fact that someone else going for a different strategy may have had their wonder up and running earlier. Also, there shouldn't be any world wonders after the modern era. Atomic and Information era wonders should be replaced with non-unique buildings that facilitate a win condition.

 

[Zegangani]

I agree, the Wonders should have more powerful Effects, but mostly, they should be more useful and viable. Half of the Wonders in the Game tend to be not worth the investment in most Games.
Scaling down the placement requirement and balancing that with other, more immersive, ways to unlocking Wonders is a great Idea IMHO. It adds more Strategy to the Game as you have to plan and work to get the wonders you want, couple that with better and more powerful Effects it would be like going for a Quest with a worthy Reward, which I really like.

Basically, no wonder should be attainable before turns 80-100.

Also, there shouldn't be any world wonders after the modern era.

Though, I don't agree that it shouldn't be possible to build Wonders in the first 100 Turns. That means no Wonders in Ancient and Classical (because even if you manage to start building one, you won't complete it till the Medieval Era) Eras, which means no 7 Wonders of the Ancient (Mediterranean) World (and the other stunning ancient/classical Wonders). And also having no Wonders in Atomic and Information Eras would mean Wonders are only available in mid/early-late Game, I honestly don't see any reason why it should be like that. I mean, World Wonders are one of the best Features of the Game, and certainly the best that the Game can offer in terms of Graphics. Having fewer of them and tying those to half of the Eras (4) and restricting them from the other half (4 - not including Future Era) and also applying specific unlock conditions to them, would make them less accessible, and hence a big noisance/frustration when you miss to build one or only getting a Hand on very few of them. That would be like an Asset that you don't make use of.

Your civilization should build its sense of identity before it starts building a world wonder.

For me, that's already established when I settle my first City, since the Civ and Leader Traits (your Culture/Identity) are immediately applied at the start of a new Game. I do see that it kinda feels rushed and (sometimes) immersion breaking for a low culture Civ to work on a Wonder in the ancient Era, but that's an Issue of the scaling and timing of the Game. We would otherwise need a Chalcolithic Era where we would have to lay down and establish the base for the Identity of a Civilization, which will have to grow in the Ancient Era.

 

[AlexM29]

I agree, the Wonders should have more powerful Effects, but mostly, they should be more useful and viable. Half of the Wonders in the Game tend to be not worth the investment in most Games.
Scaling down the placement requirement and balancing that with other, more immersive, ways to unlocking Wonders is a great Idea IMHO. It adds more Strategy to the Game as you have to plan and work to get the wonders you want, couple that with better and more powerful Effects it would be like going for a Quest with a worthy Reward, which I really like.



Though, I don't agree that it shouldn't be possible to build Wonders in the first 100 Turns. That means no Wonders in Ancient and Classical (because even if you manage to start building one, you won't complete it till the Medieval Era) Eras, which means no 7 Wonders of the Ancient (Mediterranean) World (and the other stunning ancient/classical Wonders). And also having no Wonders in Atomic and Information Eras would mean Wonders are only available in mid/early-late Game, I honestly don't see any reason why it should be like that. I mean, World Wonders are one of the best Features of the Game, and certainly the best that the Game can offer in terms of Graphics. Having fewer of them and tying those to half of the Eras (4) and restricting them from the other half (4 - not including Future Era) and also applying specific unlock conditions to them, would make them less accessible, and hence a big noisance/frustration when you miss to build one or only getting a Hand on very few of them. That would be like an Asset that you don't make use of.


For me, that's already established when I settle my first City, since the Civ and Leader Traits (your Culture/Identity) are immediately applied at the start of a new Game. I do see that it kinda feels rushed and (sometimes) immersion breaking for a low culture Civ to work on a Wonder in the ancient Era, but that's an Issue of the scaling and timing of the Game. We would otherwise need a Chalcolithic Era where we would have to lay down and establish the base for the Identity of a Civilization, which will have to grow in the Ancient Era.

Exactly what I was going for. They should feel like a quest with a very worthy reward. If I am going for a naval domination then venetian arsenal should feel like the result of me building up a navy, and then getting to upgrade it one era beyond my technological capacity and go haywire on the world with my navy. If I am going for a religious victory then Angkor Wat should be that thing that puts my religious combat over the edge. But I shouldn't be able to build a religious wonder, if I have no religion. I shouldnt be able to build a naval wonder with no navy. I shouldn't be able to build a military wonder with no military conquests to speak of.

I am completely on board with a pre-ancient era idea. I have been for a long time. The player should be the one to build the identity of the civilization. Sure, the bonuses come from the civ and leader traits, but that doesn't form the identity of your civ until you actually play it out. You could theoretically play Norway without building any ships. You could theoretically play Germany without building canals, dams, or commercial hubs to use adjacency for the Hansas. It would be crazy not to, but you have to play them right to develop the identity.

The thing is I am not opposed to early wonders, but if they are tied to a quest, I don't necessarily see how you get to them earlier. If you can complete the quest for your wonder by turn 30 then by all means go for it, but then that wonder wouldn't be worth much if it is something that you can accomplish by turn 30. That's basically a Eureka or an inspiration. Not a full-blown wonder quest. If you can complete your quest earlier then certainly go for a classical era or even ancient era wonder. But I don't know how it is feasible to do so. If you use the policy card for the production modifier on the naval units, have a bunch of coastal cities, and get the 10 naval units by turn 50 great. But I don't see how you do that without neglecting the remaining aspects of your empire completely.

So if you want ancient or classical era wonders and maintain the idea of quest tied wonders with massive rewards, something has got to give. I just don't like the idea of building a wonder even though it makes zero sense in the context of your civilization. Why would you build a religious monument with no faith? A cultural monument with no culture? That to me is worse than losing out on early wonders.

Even though some wonders were ancient, they were the culmination of that civilization's identity. They didn't build the wonders first and then develop an identity. The thing is, we have ancient wonders, because some civilizations are just older than others, but because this is a game, and all civilizations have start at the same time, it just works out that way that wonders don't start getting built until a certain point in the game.

 

[mitsho]

Well, yes and no.

Yes, tying wonders to quests instead of production, research and terrain is a sound idea. The harder these quests are, the lesser the other unlock conditions matter since there won't be any competitors.

Yes, that means fewer wonders since it means the player has to memorize them all in order to compete for them. That's a good thing.

To still have a diversity of wonders, you could add "National Wonders" with the same effect, but give them unique graphics. When you build the Big Temple, you may choose between Artemis, Jebel Barkal, Mahabodi, Angkor and Notre Dame (yes, I am aware I'm wildly mixing eras here).

Where the No comes from me is that all your unlock conditions (quests) are reinforcing ones. If you are good at war, you get better units to help you conquer faster. Those are needed, yes, but there are also superfluous: if you've built 10 ships*, why would you still need the arsenal, you are already being able to build them after all. Gameplay wise, this doesn't work. Some wonders need to have catch-up or change-lane effects. By all means, use religion to build the oracle of Delphi, but it should have diplomatic effects helping you gather info on the map f.e. .

So it's a mix, let me ask a question to end here though: what role does production play in your system?

 

[AlexM29]

Well, yes and no.

Where the No comes from me is that all your unlock conditions (quests) are reinforcing ones. If you are good at war, you get better units to help you conquer faster. Those are needed, yes, but there are also superfluous: if you've built 10 ships*, why would you still need the arsenal, you are already being able to build them after all. Gameplay wise, this doesn't work. Some wonders need to have catch-up or change-lane effects. By all means, use religion to build the oracle of Delphi, but it should have diplomatic effects helping you gather info on the map f.e. .

So it's a mix, let me ask a question to end here though: what role does production play in your system?

Part of the problem is that the game needs major rebalancing. I feel like the ship has sailed (pun not intended) on that for CIV6. This is probably more of an ideal for CIV7. I am working up a much longer post about how this would need to happen, but in short, if you are going for a naval domination victory, 10 ships, at least on higher difficulties should be nowhere near enough to win. Late game war needs to be much more devastating, especially coming from the AI attack. Essentially, the biggest problem with the game is that there is no climax. But if late game war threatens to be extremely destructive then a couple of civs teaming up against you in a late game war could and should make victory much more challenging. If the AI could just get its horsehocky together and know how to use late game units, in a naval domination victory, you would need to have a bigger navy than the rest of the world combined AND/OR enough to resist the late game bomber assault the AI should be building. The problem is the AI is far too stupid and that's why 10 ships seems like you are already running away. That should be a fraction of what you need. Ships would and should be mostly sitting ducks if a couple of civs their air force against you, which means you would have to counter with anti-air units along with your ships. As it sits now, anti-air units are completely useless because the AI never builds an airforce. So as it stands, you would need a competent AI to not make my idea basically a run away. But, also do not forget, that you will be able to build fewer wonders, and other civs will be building their runaway wonder for whatever strategy they have.

To answer your question, about what role production plays, I am not sure I understand in what context you mean, if you mean in the context of how much do you have produce to win, then I think I answered that, that the requirement for the wonder should still be a good amount away from what would be necessary for victory. If you are asking me what production bonus the wonder would offer, I think the wonder would have to provide some kind of production bonus to the thing you have been building to get the wonder. Not sure if that is what you were asking, but if you clarify your question, I would be happy to answer.

 

[mitsho]

No, write shorter, not longer posts ;-)

To answer your question, about what role production plays, I am not sure I understand in what context you mean, if you mean in the context of how much do you have produce to win, then I think I answered that, that the requirement for the wonder should still be a good amount away from what would be necessary for victory. If you are asking me what production bonus the wonder would offer, I think the wonder would have to provide some kind of production bonus to the thing you have been building to get the wonder. Not sure if that is what you were asking, but if you clarify your question, I would be happy to answer.

In the earlier games, production was the main aspect in a wonder race. Could you produce enough hammers in order to produce it first? Science (can you research the necessary tech first) became a vital aspect as well, and then terrain in Civ6 as you need the place and the right terrain. Now if you want to have the unlock conditions focus more on quests, do wonders still cost a lot of production? Or none at all since the main thing is trying to build the X ships and then you can just place it? What does that mean for production as a yield, do we devalue it then?

 

[AlexM29]

Science/culture - yes you need to still research the correct tech or civic to unlock a wonder

Terrain - This requirement should be scaled back, but still exist within the limits of reason and common sense. Machu Piccu should require a mountain. Water based wonders should still require water. A fortress of some kind should require a hill, etc. But these should be simple. Great Zimbabwe is a great example of a wonder that never gets built because the exact land requirements are too specific. So much that unless you are planning for that wonder, chances are you will never build it. It wouldn't be that much of a problem if it was a huge reward, but GZ is not worth messing up my districting, to plan around some random cattle tile.

Hammers - I think the cost of hammers to produce the wonder should stay about the same, if not go up slightly. We are, after all, with this idea, making wonders much more beneficial. They provide game changing benefits, so they should be expensive. So after you build the 10 ships, you still need the hammers to knock out the wonder too. Remember, you will only be competing with 1 or 2 other civs for certain wonders because chances are most civs will not be going for the wonder specific quest you are also going for. But this should provide for more interesting games, because other civs will have different game changing benefits depending on what quest they went for.

 

[AntSou]

More wonders in the roster, less wonders per game. I think the way Natural Wonders are designed is perfect.

There are too many World Wonders available in each game imo. Less wonders means more competition. There should be a set amount per era, or perhaps an option to choose how many per era. World Wonders would be detached from the tech/culture tree and instead have its own tab, like Great People. Progress would always be visible in the Wonder tab, like Great People currently, so that you could decide when to give up.

Upon entering a new Era, new wonders would become available. An option at the start of the game would allow the player to choose whether Wonders from upcoming eras are visible from the start of the game, or whether they only become visible when entering a new era. I much prefer the second option, but I think a lot of players would dislike that.

In the Ancient Era, each Civ would only be able to work towards a single Wonder.

From the Classical era onwards, each Civ would be able to work towards a max of two wonders. You may choose to build a wonder from the preceding era.
A Civ or Leader trait might increase this max by 1.
A government trait might also increase this max by 1, allowing for a potential absolute maximum of 4 wonders per era for some Civs.

Having several cities working towards the same wonder is a good idea in Humankind which Civ should copy. However, there should be a penalty to production from distance to the original city, especially in early ages. Techs and Civics should reduce this penalty.

Spies could be used to sabotage and slow down wonder production in a given city.

Any wonder should only be buildable in the current and following era. You shouldn't be building the Pyramids in 5 turns, or whatever it is, in the Renaissance Era.
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Edit: Wonders should also decay and be pillageable. Each wonder would provide unique bonuses to level of decay/pillage. In later eras especially, pillaging wonders would come at severe diplomatic consequences.

 

[awesome]

I would say double the number of civilizations and that’s a good number of wonders.