How often do you *not* get easy access to copper

Discussion in 'Civ4 - General Discussions' started by Sincro, Sep 2, 2009.

  1. Sincro

    Sincro Thou hast no Cu, again...

    Joined:
    May 29, 2009
    Messages:
    350
    Location:
    Canton, Ohio
    I've been playing for some time now, and BW is normally one of the first techs I research. I don't have an exact running total of the occurance, but it is far more common for me to not see any copper within shouting distance of my capital then it is to get it, and I can count on one hand the number of times it's shown up in my capital fat cross.

    Current game is fairly standard for me. Playing Elizabeth. Ancient, fractal, standard, low, epic. I have revealed roughly 200 tiles by 2925 BC, including at least 6 in all directions from my capital, and I don't see copper anywhere.

    Is this normal? Just a bad RNG run? Is there some setting which gives copper more prevalence without resorting to the 'balanced' resources which to me seems a little too much like cheating.

    -Sinc
     
  2. kaltorak

    kaltorak Emperor

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2009
    Messages:
    1,522
    Location:
    Madrid
    I see copper pretty often. And if I have no copper nearby, I probably have iron.
    Still, there are some times I have none nearby.
     
  3. mrwookie

    mrwookie Chieftain

    Joined:
    Aug 4, 2009
    Messages:
    42
    and you still have the possibility of having horses..
    if you have none of those wait until gunpowder strategy is the key.

    trebs and cat in mass could help you too..
     
  4. TheMeInTeam

    TheMeInTeam Top Logic

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2008
    Messages:
    26,052
    Copper feels like 50/50 for me but obviously answers here will differ by map script; copper is more rare on some scripts vs others.

    Aside from finding iron or horse, your fallback is the archers for early D, and offensive choking/attacking with some civs (mostly mali, celtia, and native america). Once you get to feudalism, you have the versatile and powerful longbow.

    Wait, what?

    It's true though. Guerrilla II longbows are terrific choke/harassers in enemy territory. Thanks to vassalage they also can take shock and cover (protective longbows can even get formation). Along with catapults (possibly trebs), they're not the best offensive troop in the world, but they also have no true basic counter unit (mounted, the closest thing, gets no defensive bonuses) and are going to do decently against collateral enemies. Certainly, against the computer such a thing is viable. Against humans larger stacks are hard to keep alive because they'll crush you with siege, but the guerrilla II choke nonsense is very powerful and will occasionally catch someone with an under-garrisoned city that you can burn.
     
  5. none

    none si vis pacem para bellum

    Joined:
    Sep 11, 2008
    Messages:
    166
    Location:
    Nowhere
    If you don't have copper, iron, horses or elephants then my guess is that you're pretty much out of luck. People argue about the usefulness of going straight for archery as it is a dead end tech but if you can't get copper or iron it's not that bad.

    Still, the AI has a knack for settling on (or near) iron at an early stage (especially when the competition for land is fierce). If that happens taking that city with culture (if possible) or numerous warriors (I mean a lot of them) can still do the trick.

    The same goes for oil and uranium in the late game. Often the AI will settle a crappy city in the tundra or the ice to take over some (yet hidden) resource.
     
  6. Gooblah

    Gooblah Heh...

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2007
    Messages:
    4,282
    Well, I just had a game on a Big and Small where the three copper sources on the main continent where all concentrated within 5 tiles of one AI..
     
  7. synergyUT

    synergyUT Chieftain

    Joined:
    Aug 31, 2009
    Messages:
    4
    Yea, I usually have easy access. Maybe a few games out of 10 where I don't. I don't really find it that necessary though because I don't build big armies until later on.
     
  8. marconos

    marconos Prince

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2004
    Messages:
    427
    Location:
    Stanton, MI
    I just started one ... no copper, no horses. I have elephants (yuck). After finally getting to iron working I have iron out there.

    Too bad I'm playing Shaka and have justed wasted my chance to use my Impi units :(
     
  9. binhthuy71

    binhthuy71 Emperor

    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2003
    Messages:
    1,887
    Location:
    Southern California foothills
    I get copper about 25% of the time. On the other hand, about 5% of the time; no copper, no iron, no horses. No sense crying over spilled milk: Archery then Theocracy and Vasselage then it's cats or trebs + promoted longbows. As TMIT observed, longbows are not the best offensive troops in the game but they seriously chew up AI counterattacks and if you can pillage the enemy's horse and iron resources then camp a few longbows on them you can win the war through attrition. AI seems unusually stupid about recapturing pillaged resources. Moreover, your longbowmen perched on the iron resource are likely getting a 25% hills defensive bonus which makes their job all the easier.
     
  10. TheMeInTeam

    TheMeInTeam Top Logic

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2008
    Messages:
    26,052
    A good pillaging longbow camped on an iron hill will have +25%(hills) +25% (archery unit in hills) +50% (guerrilla II) and will defend at strength 12 before counter promos or fortification.

    Between that and mobility, such a setup can be lethal, especially to humans who don't have the AI bonuses to stock each city with 3+ archers a piece and still field something else. Attacking those things on hills is like attacking grenadiers on the open field...in 200 AD X_X. They of course lose all that if they are attacking instead but for the choke role they're devastating.

    On difficulties where the AI hasn't chopped everything yet (or against foolish humans or just very large amounts of land), woodsman II swords also enjoy an incredible boost in the forest. Again, you're looking at +50% (terrain) and + 50% (woodsman II), making them very obnoxious to attack there. A combat I shock axe attacking such a unit is 5+5(.1)=5.5 (axe) vs 6+6(1-.75)=7.5 (sword)! Anything else attacking will do miserably. Swords are a little better on city attack and cheaper than longbows, but unlike hills forests can be chopped.

    The above 2 examples are even more ridiculous if you're on hill forests/jungle.

    In SP your siege is usually doing the heavy lifting after very early rushes anyway. If you're playing below immortal in tight quarters it is actually viable to warrior rush non-PRO civs, too. Actually, I've been experimenting with it on immortal/normal and it does seem to work there as long as they don't have capitol BFC copper (you hit with about 16 warriors around 2200 BC, build order worker ----> rax -----> warriors).

    On the topic of copper, IMO it is not the best rush resource. That merit goes to horses. While weaker directly, chariots move faster (negating some whips and AI garrison shifts, as well as basic production if you take cities quickly) and cost fewer hammers. They are also frequently revealed sooner, since having livestock is STRONG incentive to research AH as pigs/cow especially are some of the best tiles in the entire game. If there is horse nearby a 2000-1800 BC strike with 8+ is lethal.

    I've never double-rushed (aka killing 2 civs outright) with axes on immortal, though I've tried. I've done it multiple times with regular chariots.
     
  11. binhthuy71

    binhthuy71 Emperor

    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2003
    Messages:
    1,887
    Location:
    Southern California foothills
    Goes to show how limited is my imagination: I use chariots to get out quickly and stifle Barb production because they can deal with any Barb axemen on the way. Never thought of rushing with them.
     
  12. smackthewise

    smackthewise Prince

    Joined:
    Dec 2, 2008
    Messages:
    364
    Location:
    Melbourne, Australia
    I can't recall the last time where copper has been out of my reach! I always seem to have a near-by source.

    Never seem to get stone though.

    Usually play fractal or shuffle.
     
  13. Cjreynol

    Cjreynol Warlord

    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2009
    Messages:
    176
    Location:
    Charleston
    I generally have copper, maybe 3/10 games I don't? And I think only 1 of those 3 did I not have iron instead.

    Now one thing I never seem to get is horses! I go many games without a source anywhere near me.
     
  14. binhthuy71

    binhthuy71 Emperor

    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2003
    Messages:
    1,887
    Location:
    Southern California foothills
    What is this "stone" you speak of? Seriously, the one time I got stone it was so late in the game that I used it for trading.
     
  15. DABegley

    DABegley Warlord

    Joined:
    Oct 10, 2001
    Messages:
    155
    I don't get copper about 50% of the time and don't get iron about the same so the odds say I won't have either about 25% of the time. I think I have neither a little higher than that, maybe 30%, but close. Horses are a 30-40% have for me and elephants are only 25% or so. Now these are only my ballpark estimates, not true stats. I probably have none of iron, copper, horses or elephants less than 10%, probably less than 5% of the time but when it happens it's a pain.
     
  16. Psimon

    Psimon Chieftain

    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2009
    Messages:
    67
    Location:
    Flatlands
    Same here, I haven't had a game yet where copper doesn't practically fall into my civ's lap. It's horses and iron that the game loves to place tantalizingly out of reach, and usually just adjacent to one of my hostile neighbors. As well as gold.

    My games have been mostly Terra, a few Fractal, and lately a lot of Big & Small. Standard size, medium water level, temperate.
     
  17. Hsinchu

    Hsinchu Prince

    Joined:
    Aug 19, 2009
    Messages:
    429
    Location:
    Southern California
    No copper? No iron? No horses?

    I play a variety of maps specifically because I like exploring strategies and adapting strategies. In my experiences, copper is pretty rare, most commonly in situations where you get better starts of other sorts. Typically, if my environment has desert or hills, metals are more likely to pop up occasionally. Not as common in jungle areas or on the waterfront, at least not often (not impossible, but not the norm).

    Iron is far more common given no copper, universally among maps. If I have a start with 1 early game resource in BFC and 5 hills in the BFC, I'm getting one of the big 3. If I don't get the big 3, I'll probably reveal oil or aluminum (sometimes right under nearby city #2). Don't be disheartened. If you have quite a few visible resources early, Feudalism then gunpowder really is the bottom line and it can bog down that strategy of early domination (game abandonment). However, I recommend playing an Oasis map and learning those ropes if you are really feeling the pinch. Metal is almost a guarantee if you head into the desert. Aside from that, the truth is that if you have a larger map size, the likelihood of spotting resources and being able to connect them without competition is greatly increased. My last Huge Arid Highlands game chucked me more metal sites than I knew what to do with and about halfway into my diplomatic win, I thought about shooting for conquest/domination but figured marching over all those hills and going against almost guaranteed metal every time that I couldn't unhook... It became unappealing.

    May you find copper ever forward.
     
  18. Badtz Maru

    Badtz Maru King

    Joined:
    Oct 30, 2001
    Messages:
    674
    It used to happen fairly often in Vanilla, but since I went to BtS I think I've only had one or maybe two games where I did not have easy access to copper.
     
  19. Flying Pig

    Flying Pig Utrinque Paratus Retired Moderator

    Joined:
    Jan 24, 2009
    Messages:
    15,651
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Perfidious Albion
    If you have no iron or copper, you're really unlucky, but I routinely have no copper - but rarely none of either one
     
  20. Stylesjl

    Stylesjl SOS Brigade Member

    Joined:
    Apr 30, 2005
    Messages:
    3,698
    Location:
    Australia
    Sometimes I have difficulty getting copper, usually I only worry because it makes building the Statue of Liberty harder, normally for troops I use Iron as a substitute
     

Share This Page