How often do you reload a save?

[Mathemagician13]

Right...because flaming solves everything . I think it gets the goat of some people on the grounds that if you come here to discuss strategy, and you happen to reload to account for your "enjoyment", your strategies turn out to be artificially stronger.

 

[Memphus]

Right...because flaming solves everything . I think it gets the goat of some people on the grounds that if you come here to discuss strategy, and you happen to reload to account for your "enjoyment", your strategies turn out to be artificially stronger.

Got my vote

I suppose another way of looking at it is it isn't cheating, but if you come and discuss strategy with others implying you did very well doing option X(without letting them know you were 'experimenting', reloading and trying possiblity X,Y,Z to find the best one) then it is lieing about your success.
(and I don't mean that in a flaming way, although I am sure it will be taken that way... )

 

[Spearthrower]

I don't necessarily consider it cheating.... more like it takes some of the value out of playing. If you live with your mistakes, that's part of the game and part of the learning process. That said, if I make a stupid mistake because RL intervened and I forgot something, I will reload.

 

[STDIO]

Must be hard to take well-defended cities then, without any suicide catapaults! (It's fun when a sacrificial unit wins a fight like this -- not only is the surprise pleasant, but you get a whole heap of experience too!)

And besides, it's hard to run away when someone else is doing the attacking.

Attacking at 2% seems like a really bad strategy to me, wether it is actually good or not, I don't think I should lose so many of any unit for a tiny little miserable chance of doing a bit of damage, I might not be a good CIV player, but that's how I play.

And if I'm attacked, I have no way of knowing the enemy's chance to hit me, so how would I know its 2% in order to reload?

 

[Patriarch]

They should make like a 'hardcore' mode where you're only allowed to save say every 50 or so turns.

 

[Heeringas]

I have been reloading quite often, but my purpose is to learn the effects of different tactics. Example, I play till middle ages, then reload from the beginning (or almost beginning) and place cities differently or go for different techs...I admid its in a way cheating cause you know where all the resources are, but if those would be anyway inside my area, i don´t feel so bad ...

i think I have learned quite much with this way...But I hope ther comes a time when I don´t need to do so

 

[LeSphinx]

Never. You only improve by learning from your mistakes...

 

[tezster]

They should make like a 'hardcore' mode where you're only allowed to save say every 50 or so turns.

CIV should have kept an option where the random seed remains static i.e. even if you do reload, the outcome remains the same.

 

[DarkSchneider]

CIV should have kept an option where the random seed remains static i.e. even if you do reload, the outcome remains the same.

Actually that is the default mode, but it's easy enouhg to get around when you have more than one battle. If you lose, you can reload and fight a different, easier battle first which will use up the random seed so that you can hopefully win the more difficult battle with the next random number set. Now that, I will definately conceed is cheating...

 

[DarkSchneider]

Now I think its a good time to relate my experiences with a little electronic chess set my aunt got me for Christmas one year.

I hadn't played Chess in a number of years, so I found it challenging to beat my Chess set even on the first level, despite the fact that it said it had something like 99 different levels of difficulty you could play on. I got up to level four or so, and then I read in the manual that you could take back moves; so I did, in any situation that I missed a move that I knew would lead to my eventual demise. In the harder levels, I would even take back multiple moves, but here's what hapened.

Since I was able to play out complicated scenarios many different ways, I became a much better player for it, and while I was never able to beat the computer on those higher levels without taking moves back, I got much better at the game much faster than I would have otherwise. I think specific points in the game are always going to give people difficulty, and reloading on those points will help them work through.

Back to Civ, I might not know whether a rush to Liberalism will pay off the first time I play a difficulty level, but I'd rather not play two entire games to find out. Instead, I'll just rush to liberalism at some point, and then if I'm wrong, I will know not to do it again, and will go back to a previous save and focus on other techs.

 

[shadow2k]

I never reload, even misclicks, but...

To be fair, you can learn from reloading too, depending on how you are using it. Obviously reloading because your unit lost a battle he had 75% chance to win won't teach you anything. But there are situations where it can be benefitial, such as tactical changes in a war, or tech paths.

Not reloading teaches you to adapt and overcome your mistakes. You know, something you have to do in real life as well. But honestly, if people are using reloading to figure out and not make those mistakes in the first place, it has it's places too I guess. Not for me to say.

As far as what you do with your game at home, I don't much care. My only problem with it is when it affects the advice that gets posted in these forums. Players beat higher levels than they are really capable of (given tournament type rules like at Realms Beyond or GOTM's) because of it, and post poor advice based on it. That leaves other players to try and clean up the mess. They should just ban anyone who reloads from posting in here! (I'm kidding of course)

Just be responsible when giving advice to newer players if you are doing things to weight the game in your favor.

 

[Brighteye]

It's not cheating, because cheating implies some sort of competitive play. If you're competing with yourself you can set the rules and choose to reload or not in your games, as long as you do the same each time. If you're just playing, that's all it is; playing around. Like in the golf example, trying a tricky shot for the fun of it but knowing that it'll probably go wrong, you're trying things that you guess will go wrong.
In every game you're running a fine line between waiting until things are safe (if thinking of going to war), or doing it too early and losing. If you can only play for 2 hours an evening, why should you start again because you made the wrong decision? You now know that in that situation you shouldn't fight, so rather than spend a few hours on another game to get back to that era you just reload. You're only amusing yourself: that's what the game is for.
If, on the other hand, you're playing the game for some other purpose, such as analysing a strategy or competing with others, then you are cheating, because you're no longer just playing around.
It's a way cautious people can actually try being adventurous without feeling terrible when, as they expect, things go wrong. If that's what they find relaxing after work in the evening, then it's not really cheating, because they're not really following any set rules: they're just messing about. It's like driving round and round a go-kart course and driving through the middle (if possible). It's just fun, because there's no rules saying you must go round the whole course to get to the bend you enjoy most. On the other hand, if you're racing, of course it's cheating.
I think most people at home are just playing around in the way our practising golfer was. It's like playing toy soldiers but with more advanced technology; there are no rules except those you make. The 'rules' of the game are just mechanics, not absolute rules for us all to obey.

 

[LordTerror]

But what gets me is someone who has convinced themself they can play a Monarch level game by reloading it 50 times through out to make sure everything happened jsut right for them. And even then I shouldn't care and don't really actually, but it is the same as the office party guy who tells coworkers (other civfanatics) he shot 81 on his last round of golf, when he did, when you account for muligans and other variable experiments he tried on that game. The honest thing to say would be "Man I was out shotting golf today and tried some really interesting shots, some worked some didn't leet me tell you about what I did..."

The difference between golf and CIV is that golf is a game of aim while CIV is a game of strategy. No matter how many times you reload on CIV, you will never win a long-game on Deity unless you have sufficent strategy. On golf, you can get a lucky hit each time if you keep reloading.

In golf, there is only one thing to reload - aim. In CIV, because the game is more complicated, there are more reasons to reload. The problem is when people reload because of a bad roll of the dice.


Here are four categories of reasons to reload:
1) Strategy. Learning by trying different strategies on the same map is one example of this type of reloading. Although it is a positive effect in that example, there are negitive uses of it, too -- such as replaying the GOTM. Except in compitions, this is generally a good reason to reload, though.

2) Randomness. Did you get a bad roll of the dice and want to re-roll? Did you loose battle with 99.9% chance to win? Do you want to win with a 2% chance of success? Did an AI demand a tribue you don't want to give them? These are examples of reasons to reload because of random things effecting your game. This is one of the worst forms of reloading.

3) Foresight. Oops, they declared war on me and took my undefended cities *reload 1 turn ago to use slavery*. Hm, someone built the Oracle before me *reload 10 turns ago to add extra production*. Things like this are uses of artifical foresight.

4) Aim. Sometimes you missclick or press the wrong button. A solution to this is to work out (to get rid of those subby fingers). Seriously though, aim only applies to golf.


In any case, never EVER compare a reloaded game to a non-reloaded game!! It's like comparing apples to monkeys ... or 1v1 warmongering games to peaceful games!

Never use a reloaded game to say "I won ____" or say "I got a score of ____ on ____"! Reloading is fine in single player games, but is stops becoming singleplayer when you talk about it to OTHER PEOPLE!

They should make like a 'hardcore' mode where you're only allowed to save say every 50 or so turns.

I like that idea, but I have a better way to implement it:

For single player: Instead of manual saving, the only saving is when you quit. There is no autosave (except one that is activated in cases of crashes). Instead of "loading" you can choose to "continue" a game. Without manual loading, "reloading" is eliminated. This of course has the flaw that you can copy/paste files. It would be for single player only because it would require *some* restraint.

For single player compitition (like GOTM): Someone hosts a server (Firaxis? CivFanatics?) and everything is done server side! Only one game is allowed per account (if that's what the server sets). If you quit the game, the server remembers exactly where you were, what unit you was selected, etc. There is no need to save, no way to cheat, and best of all no need for self-restraint.

 

[Dreef]

cheat ( P ) Pronunciation Key (cht)
v. cheat·ed, cheat·ing, cheats
v. tr.

1. To deceive by trickery; swindle: cheated customers by overcharging them for purchases.
2. To deprive by trickery; defraud: cheated them of their land.
3. To mislead; fool: illusions that cheat the eye.
4. To elude; escape: cheat death.
5. To act dishonestly; practice fraud.
6. To violate rules deliberately, as in a game: was accused of cheating at cards.

I think the main problem here is the word "cheat" being used. Calling it cheating is what upsets me. The fact is that "cheating" requires deception, dishonesty, or deliberate violation of the rules. GOTM the rules explicitly say to not reload, if you reload you are cheating in GOTM. To extend that same ruleset outside of GOTM is incorrect. In other words, reloading is not cheating unless you are using it to decieve or unless it is explicitly stated in the rules. Coming to the forums and claiming "I can beat Deity easily" even though I reloaded every other turn could be considered cheating. I don't think that is a rampant problem on these forums though.

You may feel that reloading cheapens a win. Do not call it cheating though. To "cheat" has a very negative connotation while reloading, unless it is explicitly stated, is not against the rules. Do not discourage people from reloading because IMO it is the best way to develop succesfull tactics and strategies. If a person finds the best way out of a tricky situation they will be better prepared if/when a similar situation comes again. You can't turn around from a massive mistake on Monarch(maybe, but you would have to get lucky on monarch) and above. Learning to mitigate mistakes will help you to survive a losing game. Learning to avoid mistakes will help you to win games.

In otherwords it is not cheating in the context most of the people here are refering to.

 

[goraemon]

I think we can sort of agree that:

If you're just playing around or learning the game, reload all you want. Nothing wrong with it.

Just don't talk to the rest of us about how you can beat a level if you do it by reloading, because some of us firmly believe that a win achieved by reloading is NOT a win.

 

[ducker]

if I get sloppy and forget to escort a builder in finding a new city and a random barb picks him off... that's a reloader!!

 

[tigerden27]

Here are four categories of reasons to reload:
1) Strategy. Learning by trying different strategies on the same map is one example of this type of reloading. Although it is a positive effect in that example, there are negitive uses of it, too -- such as replaying the GOTM. Except in compitions, this is generally a good reason to reload, though.

Agree completely, this is my second most common reason for re-loading.

2) Randomness. Did you get a bad roll of the dice and want to re-roll? Did you loose battle with 99.9% chance to win? Do you want to win with a 2% chance of success? Did an AI demand a tribue you don't want to give them? These are examples of reasons to reload because of random things effecting your game. This is one of the worst forms of reloading.

Can't say I've done this in years. Also wouldn't say it's the "worst" for of reloading. I have no problems with someone reloading for this reason if they are in a single player game. Heck I don't even mind them talking about beating Deity if they do this. To each their own. (BTW, I'm not even willing to say there is a "worst" reason for reloading, as long as its not a competition.)

3) Foresight. Oops, they declared war on me and took my undefended cities *reload 1 turn ago to use slavery*. Hm, someone built the Oracle before me *reload 10 turns ago to add extra production*. Things like this are uses of artifical foresight.

Can't say I've done this one in years either. I usually live with my mistakes in this area because I think it adds to the challenge. In Civ3 I would try the Wonders production re-load, but I usually felt like it wasn't worth it.

4) Aim. Sometimes you missclick or press the wrong button. A solution to this is to work out (to get rid of those subby fingers). Seriously though, aim only applies to golf.

I've done this once or twice, but usually just play through.

I'm going to add:
5) Forgetfulness. This is the inverse of Foresight. Basically you walk away from a game for a while and when you restart the game you forget that you meant to go for something. For example, forgetting your war plans and starting to build peacefully until you notice the stack of units just waiting to attack. (BTW, this is my most common reason for reloading. Seems like I can never get through a game in one sitting.)

In any case, never EVER compare a reloaded game to a non-reloaded game!! It's like comparing apples to monkeys ... or 1v1 warmongering games to peaceful games!

Not sure I agree with this. I think comparing reloading games to a non-reloaded game is closer to comparing free on-line poker to real-money on-line poker. There is a bit more the line in the second case, but only what you are willing to lose (money/pride/etc...). But it's still the same basic game.

Good post though Lord Terror. Didn't want you to think I was ripping on the idea at all.

All my thoughts apply only to single-player games where reloading isn't explicitly against the rules. IE, non-competitive games.

 

[VoiceOfUnreason]

Never. You only improve by learning from your mistakes...

Kind of limiting, isn't it? Having only one way to improve?

My feeling is that there are three key ingrediants

1. Discovery - oh, that wasn't such a good idea
2. Prevention - the way to avoid the issue is
3. Punishment - getting your nose rubbed in the carpet

If you learn the first two lessons, the last is of no great import; the practice playing under a handicap you have learned to avoid is of limited future utility.

There is something to be said for playing it out, when the degree of the error is still unclear. One thing I took away from a recent game of mine is that a couple of errors weren't really as severe as they initially appeared (which means I can allocate my resources differently next time). When it is clear that the position is lost, though, further abuse is masochism (and if you are into that sort of thing, go wild).

That said, I'm in the almost never camp. I would consider a reload when the interface crosses my intentions, but not when my intentions are dumb. If I ruin an interesting position, I'll just start another game - I'm not that invested in it.

A personal choice, though, not a religious stance.

 

[Torello]

I think reloading is clearly cheating, it's just that there's too much stigma attached to the idea of cheating.

I like the golf analogy. I don't play much, and I'm out there to have fun. So I cheat it up. And there's nothing wrong with that. You can do it in a way that harms your development in the game (such as never even trying to shoot out of hard rough, or reloading when a dice roll misses you), or do it in a way that doesn't (such as taking multiple shots from the same position, or reloading to try a different strat from the same position). Either way it's your own game against yourself (assuming no MP), and it's your own call whether to cheat yourself or not.

Personally I do it sometimes, like I said, but in productive ways. In Civ 4 I generally don't reload to try different strats, but I sometimes use it to fix my ADD. I'm always meaning to do things and don't do them. So sometimes if it's important enough to be worth the effort of redoing the turns I'll go back and do what I meant to do.

I would never say I shot an 85 in golf if it took me 150 strokes to shoot that 85, nor would I claim a Civ victory that required more than the occasional minor reload.

 

[MyOtherName]

To "cheat" has a very negative connotation

This is true. I think that is what leads some people to argue so vehemently that reloading to get better results isn't cheating (and to lash out against those who remind them that it is cheating). They are so afraid of the label that they would rather try to circumvent it, instead of argue that there's nothing wrong with cheating, in this instance.

Additionally, I would be surprised if there isn't some small demographic that is trying to rationalize away their cheating, because they want to be proud that they played the game well. (Let me emphasize that I said a small demographic: by no means do I think all, or even most, people who argue that it's not cheating fall in this category)