How regain leadership?

[Aless133]

I need some thoughts about my situation.
So, I'm plaing for Russia, Peter. It's middle ages (first macemans etc), I'm 2 in overall rating.
On my continent there are Zulu, Celts, Ottomans and Germans. And there are Portugal somewhere, 1 more civ 1 don't know yet.
Zulu are weakest side and they are the only my direct neighbors. I was in for with them sometime, destroyed 3 cities, than go to peace to zero WW and build cities.
Zulu become vassal of Celts, who are nearly like my empire. Germans are best so far (they become leaders before Zulu-Russian war), Ottomans are weaker than me.

So now I have to do something and become leader once again. And i think it's now a new war with Zulu but some developing (but also Cossack's era is approaching - so I have to fight???)

What I have: ~10 cities, Holy city of 2 religions (1 of it are state) with built 2 Religion wonders (Temple of Solomon etc). Btw I even can found 3rd religion if it have some sense.
Also: 1 Great Engineer, 1 Great Prophet, 2 Great Generals.

Engineer is stored to build some wonder, but now I have stone and will try to build Notre Dame, University of Sankore and Spiral Minaret myself.

Great prophet maybe will research Divine Right.
And I just can't decide how to get maximum from 2 GGenerals.

Than near me there is island with 2-3 barbarian(!) cities and 1 Portugal. I'll think to sail there and build own cities there (I don't have free place on start continent because of Zulu).

So what can u advice me? What are best developing strategy in my situation? How to use GG? How to use my religions? (civ's don't want to sign Open borders so it's hard to use missionaries)

Maybe go for some new civics? (now I have just Organized religion and default are the rest)

What else?

ps. Sorry for my English if any ;-)
pps. Maybe I have post this to "Strategy" forum, move it if so.

 

[Magnificent One]

IMO,you should conquer those barbarian cities on the island.When you can build cossacks,if you don't have an army,you should create one,and use those great generals.You should get Divine Rght with your GP,and use you engineer to build the Spiral Minaret.With the Cossacks and other stuff,destroy the Zulu's,then if Germany tries to attack,you should probably play defensive until you can build an amry capable to destroy Germany.

 

[Aless133]

if you don't have an army,you should create one,and use those great generals.

I have some army, bigger than Zulu, but not 3 times bigger.
And how to use GG?

With the Cossacks and other stuff,destroy the Zulu's,then if Germany tries to attack,you should probably play defensive until you can build an army capable to destroy Germany.

I'm afraid of Celts, not Germans. Zulu are Celt's vassals so I have to fight bot of them if I'll attack Zulu.

I thought to push Germans/Ottomans to attack Celts+Zulu but they don't want to speak about this.

 

[revengeofmakno]

It seems to me that with the Cossacks on the way, you have to make a decision on whether you will go on a major offensive or not. It is your unique opportunity to crush a major rival or two. If you go ahead, don't do it by halves, go for it full out. Scout out the potential targets and invasion routes now. The great generals can be used to build academies in your production cities to get that army built as fast as possible and sustain it after you start taking casualties. Don't leave those GGs standing around waiting.
The barbarian cities on the island seem to be a side show. If you are going to launch a big offensive, don't let them be a distraction that delays you. The cossack opportunity is a good one but it won't last for long.
If you don't go on the offensive, then set another clear set of goals that is designed to take you to the top, not just survive.

 

[Aless133]

It seems to me that with the Cossacks on the way, you have to make a decision on whether you will go on a major offensive or not. It is your unique opportunity to crush a major rival or two.

Cossacs are nor very useful to attack cities. I have to use them to crash anything outside?

The great generals can be used to build academies in your production cities to get that army built as fast as possible and sustain it after you start taking casualties. Don't leave those GGs standing around waiting.

I don't have required tech at the moment but I'll try.

 

[AlphaShard]

Cossacks can attack cities just fine, bring some Macemen and Catapults along to make things easier.

 

[Retrograde]

Could you post a save? It would make it a lot easier to see whats going on.
Also, what difficulty level is this?
As for the help...
-I prefer to use GGs as military instructors, especially if you're planning a war.
-If you can, GET BUREAUCRACY. That civic is -insanely- helpful.
-If you have a tech lead, use it! Spam cossacks/macemen and crush your foes!
-Do you have any friends on your island or do they all hate you? Try and forge some alliances! Giving people free techs is a good way to get +4, civics help a bunch, and religion is critical.

 

[revengeofmakno]

Cossacks are nor very useful to attack cities. I have to use them to crash anything outside?

A Cossack invasion is definitely different than a lumbering stack of siege weapons. Ues swarming numbers. You can move quickly and target/isolate different cities. The AI can be in doubt as to which city you will hit and thus have to divide its forces among several garrisons. An attack by some flanking promoted units can then weaken the defenders so that others can move in. Many cities have been taken down by a cossack/cavalry only invasion.

Numbers and a continuing wave of reinforcements can do the trick. If you can outproduce your opponent, you can break him/her. That is where the academies come in as they increase your production considerably. Perhaps you are in a position to get the numbers without them. If so, one of the generals can go to a mobile super-medic unit and another can go as a military instructor in the key unit production city.

Other tactics include cutting key roads and plundering key resources and improvements. Hesitate before looting the cottages unless you have no intention of taking/keeping the city they are near to. Everything else is open season.
Your raiders will often take casualties from counter-attacks but those same counter-attacks can bring the defenders out into the open which is where you would like to face them.

In addition to all this, having a siege stack coming up the rear is useful for those cities that are just too well garrisoned. With all the other chaos happening ahead of it, that stack can reduce cities without being interrupted. Your scouting can tell you how large such a stack needs to be if it is needed.

This kind of invasion is among the most fun!

 

[Aless133]

Could you post a save? It would make it a lot easier to see whats going on.
Also, what difficulty level is this?

Nobble. It's said as best for old civ's veterans ;-)

As for the help...
-I prefer to use GGs as military instructors, especially if you're planning a war.

I already have Bakkack every where, so unit will get +4 XP and it's still only 1 promotion, isn't it?

-If you can, GET BUREAUCRACY. That civic is -insanely- helpful.

+50% for just one city. Why it can be helpful?

-If you have a tech lead, use it! Spam cossacks/macemen and crush your foes!

I think we are tech-similar. Maybe I can just build more unit. More than Zulu, but not more then Zulu+Celts. But it depends of how aggressive Celts will defend his vassal. Never had situations like this before.

-Do you have any friends on your island or do they all hate you? Try and forge some alliances! Giving people free techs is a good way to get +4, civics help a bunch, and religion is critical.

Yes' I'll try to establish good relationship with Germans, they are agree for Open borders, so I'll use my missionaries. The rest don't hate me, but don't love too ;-) And yes, Shaka is furious ))))

+4 what?

 

[Aless133]

If so, one of the generals can go to a mobile super-medic unit

Where is list of GG-promotions? I mean extra promotions available only with GG.

 

[God-Emperor]

I already have Bakkack every where, so unit will get +4 XP and it's still only 1 promotion, isn't it?

+4 added to the +3 from barracks and +2 from stable gives you cossacks that start with 9xp. One XP from the 3rd promotion. So say you give them all flanking 1 and flanking 2. A lot of them will survive attacking a city. With only 1 xp needed to go up a level and get another promotion, what do you think will happen after your first attack? Lots of units getting promotions, like combat 1. Taking a promotion also cures a lot of damage for the unit, so they can go attack more enemies sooner while being stronger than they were in the first attack. When you get a 3rd great general, settling it in the same city as the other 2 will make your cossacks start with 11xp and 3 promotions, and non-mounted units will start with 9, just 1xp from their third promotions just like the cossacks were before this.

Have you ever noticed how some AI units have tons of promotions? Ever notice how they tend to beat your units of the same type? This is one of the ways they get that way: settling multiple great generals in one city. (The other is, of course, by fighting a lot.)

As for Bureaucracy, it is a very strong civic.

+50% for just one city. Why it can be helpful?

It is probably your best city for either production or commerce or both, and if it isn't then it is almost certainly #2 unless you had an unusually bad starting location. The bonus is for both production and commerce. It will often increase your civilization's total commerce by more than 10%, resulting in a 10% or more faster tech rate (possibly over 20%, particularly if it pushes you past the point where you can bump up the research slider a notch and still be making money). Also, the rate at which the city will be able to churn out cossacks, and such, for your war will be considerably higher (as well as building buildings, including wonders, faster too). If your capital is not one of your best cities, you might consider moving your capital to one of your best cities even if for no other reason than this bonus.

And it is, as it so happens, Peter's favorite civic. (Not that it really matters.)

 

[Aless133]

+4 added to the +3 from barracks and +2 from stable gives you cossacks that start with 9xp. One XP from the 3rd promotion. So say you give them all flanking 1 and flanking 2. A lot of them will survive attacking a city. With only 1 xp needed to go up a level and get another promotion, what do you think will happen after your first attack? Lots of units getting promotions, like combat 1. Taking a promotion also cures a lot of damage for the unit, so they can go attack more enemies sooner while being stronger than they were in the first attack. When you get a 3rd great general, settling it in the same city as the other 2 will make your cossacks start with 11xp and 3 promotions, and non-mounted units will start with 9, just 1xp from their third promotions just like the cossacks were before this.

Ok, but I don't catch how to get this +4 XP? 2 GG -> Instructors?

Btw, Flanking is just chance to withdraw?

 

[God-Emperor]

Yes, click on the button for the GG that settles it in the city as an instructor. Icons for them will appear on the city screen above the great people point bar to the lower right. Each one will add 2 XP to units built in the city (and give 3 research points each if you are using the representation civic, just like specialists). You don't have to use them this way, but it is a good option.

The Flanking 1 promotion is just +10% withdraw, but Flanking 2 is +20% withdraw and immunity to first strikes (which can be nice - city defender units, like longbows, often get one or more first strikes that this negates). Unlike knights, cavalry and cossack units are not automatically immune to first strikes. With flanking 1 and 2 a cossack will also have a 60% withdrawal chance, which is pretty good. Realistically, it may be good to build some with different promotions - combat 1 and 2 (or combat 1 and a promotion targeted at their main unit type, like shock for melee units) make them more likely to win and therefore not need to withdraw, and it is good to have some stronger units for when you really need to win and not just survive.

The term "flanking" also has another meaning in the game. Cossacks can do flanking damage to catapults, trebuchets, and cannons. This is a lot like inflicting collateral damage, but only to those specific unit classes. This has nothing to do with the two flanking promotions.

 

[revengeofmakno]

@ God-Emperor
Good explanation. Now I looking forward to our friend in Minsk posting some screen shots of a good Cossack butt-kicking.

 

[Aless133]

But until I'll reach them I'll try to get Open Borders with all except Zulu+Celts (make better relations in general to have some allies), spread religions (now I have 2, and maybe'll get 3rd), develop science, get some new cities on barbarian's lands, find 7th civ (and give them my religion) or maybe some free land in ocean.

 

[Aless133]

After ~100-150 years of peace I become a leader by score (1600+ pts vs 1400- pts, I spend this time building economy and trading techs) and now I'm rushing towards Cossacks. But I've once again found myself isolated and in war with Zulu and Portugals(!). They have another religion etc. And Portugal attack me after I smartly took 2 barbarian cities what was in Portugal plans (we even have positive relations before their attack!). So now there is no other way to survive but to outproduce my enemies and throw tons of Macemans and Knights into the battle. Not very interesting and I think to abandon the game.

 

[God-Emperor]

There are other ways to survive than pure brute force.

First, the AI is not incredibly good at waging war. It makes mistakes, both tactical and strategic. You can get an advantage just by waging war better than they do. For example, you can take advantage of terrain - it is sometimes possible to get the AI to waste multiple units killing (or trying to kill) a unit or small stack of units, particularly when you get defensive bonuses like for a forested hill, that they could have just ignored and walked past (like one crossbow, one pikeman, and one maceman - this is a small threat to a large stack passing by, but on the 75% defense bonus terrain it is a relatively hard group to kill if it decides to try). Build units that specifically counter the mix of units that they are using; the AI does this to some extent, but is often not very good at it. Changing the mix of units you are using takes time for the AI to respond to, since it has to build the counter units and get them to the front, so if you suddenly start building lots of knights when you had only a few before it will take a while for the extra spears and pikes to arrive. Take advantage of the superior mobility that your roads give you. Build catapults to weaken their stacks. Lots of catapults (any that are left will also be useful later when you launch your own attack). Really, a lot of catapults. And when you are preparing to attack their cities later, some trebuchets too (if you have the tech for them). Almost all new players underestimate how many siege units they should use, often by a factor of 2 or more.

Then there are options like getting someone else to declare war on one (or both, although that is unlikely) of them. It might take a hefty bribe, perhaps as much as both a good recent tech and some cheaper tech. Or this might not be possible. Sadly for you, in this case you are the Russians - it is sad because it is possible to bribe Catherine to declare war even if she is at Friendly with the civ she would be going to war with (as long as she likes you somewhat). If she were in the game it would usually be easier, but others will often do it too if they are pleased with you (or sometimes even if they are just cautious) and not friendly with your enemies.

Another option is the tech option. Ignoring all other techs and going for the military techs can make you very strong in the short term. Getting a good unit, like the cossacks, early can sometimes just about win you the war all by itself if you have enough production to produce them at a reasonable rate. Then, if you can survive and get canons before they do and get some into the war before they get them, you have probably won the war if you make no serious mistakes. Cossacks (and riflemen) + cannon = gruesome things for your enemies, until they get riflemen (unfortunately, rifling is a prereq for cossacks so by the time you also get cannons it is likely that they will already have it - but if they don't, you can stomp all over them until either they get rifling or you destroy them). Going for superior military tech usually requires that you prevent them from disrupting your economy much. Stop them from plundering if possible, and rebuild quickly whenever you can. If they mess up your economy too much, you probably won't win the race to the techs you need. This gets into the benefits of a specialist economy, which I won't go into except to say that farms are easy to build but towns take a long time to develop after being plundered so some farms + specialists can be easier and mroe effective to keep going during a defensive war (when most, or all, of the fighting is in your territory) than the cottage-to-town progression improvement is.

Also, it sounds from your first post like Portugal is not very close to you - probably on a different continent. They might never seriously attack you, or perhaps not more than once. This is especially true if they were bribed to join the war. Civs that are bribed into a war are often not fully prepared to fight a war (and sometimes not prepared to do so at all). The same lack of preparation can also be the case if they declared war on their own but only did so at that time because you were already at war; this is the AI's "dogpile war" programming in action (there is no good way to know this unless you have the cheat code activated, but if they were not bribed but still never really attack then there is a good chance this is what happened). It is even less likely that they will be properly prepared if it requires a navy to transport their forces. Portugal gets good naval units, but it takes a lot of early ships to transport an army.

By the way, the score value is not very important. The power graph is more important (as is the line on the demographics page about the size of your military and how it compares to the others). The GNP graph is also more important, especially when you are not in a war, as the rate at which you are researching is, to some degree, proportionate to it (it depends on number of research bonus buildings vs. money bonus buildings and such, but two civs with similar GNPs will usually have similar research output if they have a similar number of cities - interestingly, having fewer cities helps due to the lower maintenance costs so a similar GNP but fewer cities often means a faster research rate).

That was about 3 or 4 times as much stuff as I had expected to say (and most of it might even be correct).

 

[Aless133]

Sadly for you, in this case you are the Russians - it is sad because it is possible to bribe Catherine to declare war even if she is at Friendly with the civ she would be going to war with (as long as she likes you somewhat). If she were in the game it would usually be easier, but others will often do it too if they are pleased with you (or sometimes even if they are just cautious) and not friendly with your enemies.

Don't understand what is with Russians (I'm playing as Peter) and Catherine?

 

[revengeofmakno]

Don't understand what is with Russians (I'm playing as Peter) and Catherine?

He was saying that if you were not the Russians, you could bribe the Russians to attack your enemies. Some civilizations are easier to bribe than others.

I think he is correct in that you should move toward to the military techs as fast as possible in this situation. The AI might not do that and it will give you a good window of opportunity especially with cossacks.

 

[God-Emperor]

It's not really civilizations, it's leaders. Some are easier to bribe into war than others. Catherine, in particular, is the only leader that can be bribed to declare war on someone that the leader is at the Friendly level with. Not even Montezuma, Shaka, or Ragnar will do that, and neither will Peter - just Catherine.