How should the Martyr promotion work?

[Amrunril]

Based on the recent livestream, it appears that cultists in Secret Societies Mode will generate relics when they are consumed or destroyed in any way. To me this raises the question of whether apostles with the martyr promotion (and Khmer missionaries) should work in the same way.

Thematically, it's always seemed odd that martyrs generate relics when killed in theological combat but not when killed by military units. Religious figures who are killed by force or arms tend to be remembered, well as martyrs. Those that are humiliated in theological debate (of which theological combat seems to be a highly stylized representation)... no so much.

Gameplay-wise, giving relics for apostles killed militarily would also serve as a reward for dominating the religious game to the point where your opponents' only defense is to "flip the table" and start killing your religious units. Of course this would be problematic in single player, since the AI rarely does this even when it definitely should (really, everything about religious combat and victory is skewed by the AI's utter inability to deal with these systems in a reasonable way).

I wonder, then, what would be the best way for the martyr promotion to work. I've created a poll if you want to give feedback (choose as many options as you think appropriate). Personally, I think martyrs should definitely give relics when killed militarily, but I'm more torn about whether they should also give them when killed in theological combat or expending all their charges. Military only makes the most sense thematically, considering the promotion's name, but allowing the other options would be cleaner and more flexible gameplay-wise.

 

[Sirsquier]

I think all three. (or at least the top 2 would work well.)

 

[Nicolas Ferland]

It should be only when killed by military units. Theological combat should be seen as the unit being convinced to be in the wrong and joining the other religion, so the opposite of what makes someone a martyr. Also, units killed by military units should not produce negative pressure. People do not change religion because their minister got killed, but they can do it if their minister got convinced to change religion.
Also as a bonus for the martyr promotion, in addition to producing a relic when killed by military units, it should get a spread when killed military (so the exact opposite of what it is right now).
Then martyr units can be used when you are at war with someone.

 

[Banazir864]

It should be only when killed by military units. Theological combat should be seen as the unit being convinced to be in the wrong and joining the other religion, so the opposite of what makes someone a martyr. Also, units killed by military units should not produce negative pressure. People do not change religion because their minister got killed, but they can do it if their minister got convinced to change religion.
Also as a bonus for the martyr promotion, in addition to producing a relic when killed by military units, it should get a spread when killed military (so the exact opposite of what it is right now).
Then martyr units can be used when you are at war with someone.

This is pretty much what I was thinking, except I didn't really think of "deaths" in theological combat as being due to the units being converted (IMO, people like that being converted is rare IRL, and when they are, they often start evangelizing their new religion instead of just disappearing) but rather due to them losing credibility (and possibly being killed by the people). I've always viewed this as analogous to the Reformation-themed board game Here I Stand, where a debater who loses badly enough either gets "disgraced" (if Catholic) or burned at the stake (if Protestant), either of which removes him from the game.

I might even go for a "Blood of the Martyrs" enhancer belief along the following lines: Religion's units being killed by military units causes a burst of religious pressure in nearby cities. Inquisitors only reduce this religion's presence by 25% instead of 75%.

 

[Zaarin]

I don't know what the ideal solution is, but I do know that relics are waaaay too hard to come by. In the Middle Ages you couldn't visit a small village chapel without stumbling across a relic.

 

[Lord Lakely]

I think it should be a religious tenet, not a promotion

 

[Banazir864]

Maybe split it up:

Promotion:
Venerated: Relic is created when this Apostle dies or uses its last charge.
Basically, the same as Cultists. If that makes it too easy, maybe make it:
Venerated: Relic is created when this Apostle dies or uses its last charge if, during its lifetime, it converted at least one city to your Religion for the first time.

Enhancer belief:
Martyrdom: Religion's units being killed by military units causes a burst of religious pressure in nearby cities. Inquisitors only reduce this Religion's presence by 25% instead of 75%.

 

[ezzlar]

One could be generous about the different causes creating a relic, but make it percentage chance instead. "X% to create relic when killed by military, Y% to create relic when losing theologic battle, Z% when expending the last charge".

And as you get more relics all percentages should decrease. There is a limit to holiness.

 

[acluewithout]

I think there should be a better mechanics for getting Relics. Perhaps all units have a % chance of generating a relic if they’re killed in theological combat or by a military unit.

More generally, I’m not a huge fan of the Apostle Promotion system. I think the various bonuses should instead be split between Enhancer Beliefs and or a bit more Religious Unit variation. But I guess that ship has sailed.