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How should we buff France?

Discussion in 'Civ - Ideas & Suggestions' started by halfhalfharp, Jan 25, 2018.

  1. halfhalfharp

    halfhalfharp Chieftain

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    France is currently a lesser choice to pick, as it is not powerful enough when compared to other civs, in every victory route.

    Many attributes the weakness to Catherine's leader ability.

    Actually her strength in spying is not a big trouble for me. Spies can do a lot of things when they have promotions that gives a 90% success chance. But the espionage strength is certainly an accessory as its comes really late and need alot of investment to work.

    The bigger problem lies in France's viability towards a cultural victory, which is the only privileged route under its current civ Uniques.

    Lets look at the Civ's uniques one by one:


    Civ Unique ability:


    One of the issue is the construction of later game wonders. They cost a lot of production, even if CdM has a boost in building them, but they are not providing a lot of tourism.

    So France cities are constantly locked into building them. Yet a failure costs you dearly, due to the huge waste of time and production, but the reward is too small compared to it.

    Unique unit:

    The Grande Imperiale comes in handy for defensive purpose. But, like samurais, they are very expensive to build or to purchase. When cities are constantly locked in constructions, it is just impossible to make enough number of them and France can be easily overwhelmed by aggressive civs. And the defensive design renders a Grande Imperiale rush sth very unlikely to happen.


    Unique Improvement:

    They provide a decent amount of culture and some tourism, not bad as an improvement alone.

    So we are putting wonders here, districts here, farmlands here... wait, this improvement occupies a tile and can only be built adjacent to river and it gets boost when it is adjacent to wonders? Where should I place my national park, and my seaside resort then?

    The conditions to maximize benefits from Chateau are quite harsh, moreover it chews up valuable tiles for something else. This makes the land planning of France, where wonders already occupy alot of space, even more embarrassing.

    Rounding up the above opinions, the weakness of French comes from

    1, the tons of production they need, but yet they lack sufficient hammers :c5production:to function well

    2, difficult tile management

    3, everything comes so late but not so powerful

    4, on top of all, CdM is good at sth costly but not so useful.



    The solution we need is more than an alt leader can solve. Even CdM is gone, the problem is still there.

    The late game problem is not really a serious thing. But we should make sure that it is worthy to survive all the hell-like early game. In the current situation, France only struggles through the early game to get into another horrible later game.

    I guess France really needs a harder boost in wonder production, cheaper UU and less conditional UI( or more beneficial), in order to get a real improvement.

    Or they can revolutionize the whole kit to make things better.

    Proper suggestions: (collected ideas from responses to this post)

    Spoiler Grand Tour :

    20% is just not enough as a sufficient boost for later wonders. Lets compare the numbers of wonder production cost in different eras.

    Ancient and classical wonders cost around 180-400 production. A 15% boost, like that of Egypt and China, is reasonable to win those early wonders.

    Medieval wonders cost 710, Renaissance wonders cost 900-1000 sth, and Industrial wonders cost even higher, somewhere around 1200-1500.
    A 20% boost is still acceptable for Medieval wonders, although it can hardly guarantee anything. And for Renaissance and industrial wonders, it is clear that 20% boost in wonder production is just a pity number.

    This problem is more outstanding as you only have 10-30 production:c5production: per turn, even with industrial zones which come in Medieval era, making us to sacrifice medieval wonder building to pull up the industrial zones.

    Assume that we also take the Gothic Architecture policy, which boosts the wonder construction bonus to 35%:
    30 (at max) x 135% =40.5.
    900 (the lowest cost for Renaissance wonders) / 40.5 =22.5 turns:(

    22 turns for a wonder is madness. Not to mention that the civic progression is as fast as rocket. You probably will reach the civic to build the Bolshoi Theater before you finish your first late game wonder. That is ridiculous.
    :o:o:o:o

    Thus I suppose a 100% boost is not too ground breaking for France actually, considering how much production they have to waste on wonders, spies, and their UU.

    900/ (30 x 215%) = 14 turns
    This sounds much more logical to build one wonder. If 100% sounds too terrifying, 60% can also do. It is just necessary to make France good in late game wonder building.


    Also, consider Germany and Nubia, the two production power house in Civ 6.

    Spoiler For Germany :

    For Germany:
    Germany's UD can boost an extra +5 production per industrial zone.(Actually it can be much higher in terms of good positioning, but lets keep it 5 here)
    Assume it also takes the Gothic Architecture policy, and it has 30+5=35 production.

    35 x 115% =40.2
    900/40.2 =22.3 turns (also the same as France)



    Spoiler For Nubia :

    For Nubia:
    Nubia has +1 production per mine on resources and +1 production per Pyramid adj to industrial zone.
    Aussme it also takes the Gothic Architecture policy, and it has 3 improved mine resources and 2 nubian pyramid next to industrial zone: 30+5=35 production.

    35 x 115% =40.2
    900/40.2 =22.3 turns (also the same as France)

    Sometimes I just feel bad for France...


    Spoiler Chateaux :
    Chateaux isn't really bad compared to the wonder production problem. But it still arises land issues due to its difficult positioning to maximize the yield. I suppose the requirement along river should be removed, but we can also add a non-adjacent requirement to limit its power.


    Spoiler Grande Imperiale :

    The main issue for the UU is not their defensive design, but their cost to produce. Also, considering how late they arrive in game and how hard it is to get one. They become a luxury rather than having practical use.

    A sharp cut in their production may not be necessary, but we need to have an unit that can be upgraded into this UU.


    Spoiler Catherine di Medici :

    Many say that her ability is quite disappointing. But in fact it is not that bad for better spy operations and an extra spy. For other players, playing espionage system aggressively is an unnecessary lucky draw. But for CdM, it is almost a certain success, as the succeeding chance is 90%. Espionage actually has a powerful potential as long as the operations are successful.

    If the above issues are fixed, I think CdM is still fun to play. But to make her ability comparable to other leaders, I think she can have more spies. 7 spies are more than enough in duel or small maps. But in larder maps, she needs a lot more spies to keep up the advantage.
     
    Last edited: Jan 26, 2018
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  2. dunkleosteus

    dunkleosteus Lieutenant Commander

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    What if Chateaus gave full adjacency bonuses to districts? Basically +1 to the district's yields for each adjacent Chateau. France was also the dominant power in Europe for a very long time, being at the forefront of science and art. I think it would be cool if France got bonus tourism to civs with lower science or culture per turn.
     
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  3. Nalain

    Nalain Chieftain

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    I never have been good in making rules, but i will try giving some ideas.

    First of all, as in first version of civ5, France gets leader bonuses limited in time. Just why ? The first thing to do is to remove or do something without that limitation.

    For my part, i won't give extra bonuses from castle. Food had and still have central place in french culture, so why not ressources that gives food bonuses give an extra +1 to any district adjacent to him ? If it's too powerful to give in all kind of district, it can be to military, artisan and cultural one.
     
  4. Krajzen

    Krajzen Warlord

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    Give France an alternate leader. Louis XIV, or Napoleon, or some medieval king. Two birds with one stone - cooler leader than controversial CDM and opportunity for new strong ability. Preferentially some "imperial" one, also useful since early game.

    Change unique units from stupid home continent bonus (useless by the mid to late game when it appears) to something useful.
     
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  5. halfhalfharp

    halfhalfharp Chieftain

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    I like the idea of giving bonus to surrounding districts. But I think it is better to be tourism than other yields, fitting the focus of a cultural victory.

    Still it is a good idea to give other bonus, making France more versatile. But giving too much for a UI maybe too op. I guess loosing the requirement to build it is a better option.
     
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  6. halfhalfharp

    halfhalfharp Chieftain

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    I agree with the bonus from luxuries. But if it needs adjacent districts to function, the production and tile problem that France is facing will still be haunting.

    Thus my suggestions will be leaning more towards boosting the wonder building and Unique unit constructions. That will be a more critical solution to free up city production towards other development
     
  7. halfhalfharp

    halfhalfharp Chieftain

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    As ai have mentioned, changing the leader can't really save France from the abyss. Except you are giving him a extremely huge bonus that overcomes the above problems. Then I suppose changing the civ uniques will be a more practical way.

    The Grande Imperiales are not bad as a defensive idea. If you've got civs in the same continent, a Grande Imperiale rush can still be a catastrophy to them. The main problem is the production cost sucks.
     
  8. Japper007

    Japper007 Chieftain

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    Grand Tour: just give a much bigger production boost, I don't think 100% would even be crazy here. Right now it's a pittance, saving like 1 or 2 turns of a Wonder here and there. Wonder Tourism is also insignificant compared to Great Works and Seaside Resorts, so that should just remain as is.

    Chateaux: Remove river requirement, remove no adjacent other Chateaux requirement. Essentialy make it spammable. Have you ever seen the Loire Valley? Having one on every tile isn't unflavorful.

    Garde Imperiale: Make it a replacement you can upgrade into, unit is fine though, pretty strong even

    Cathy's Flying Squadron: I'd wait to see how Rise and Fall effects spies, also the Combat Strenght bonus from visibility will stealth-buff this ability a lot as well.
     
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  9. halfhalfharp

    halfhalfharp Chieftain

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    I totally agree with your suggestions.
    Grand tour: 100% is actually not game breaking for France, considering how expensive late game wonders are and how low city production is in Civ 6.
    I have added some calculations for reference in the post.

    Chateaux: Yes, make it spammable, like Sumer's Ziggurat. But a little reminder is that Chateaux doesn't have "no adjacent other Chateaux requirement", which is a rule that Sphinx has.

    Grande Imperiale: Yes, surely. There may not be a sharp cut in their production, but we need to have a cheaper unit that can upgrade into this UU.
     
  10. Japper007

    Japper007 Chieftain

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    Ah I was sure that requirement was also there for Chateaux, did it change in a patch or something?
     
  11. halfhalfharp

    halfhalfharp Chieftain

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    I am not sure. But it doesn't have that requirement now. For I hv been planting them all adjacent in my last game
     
  12. Uberfrog

    Uberfrog Warlord

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    I really don't understand why the non-replacement UUs are not able to be upgraded from the previous unit in the same line. The Garde Imperiale is a melee unit, so should be upgradeable from the Musketman. Even if it is not a direct replacement for anything, it is better than the Musket in every case. It should also have the option to be upgraded into the Infantry - sure it outperforms the Infantry on the home continent, but you should still have the option. Doing this would be a buff to a ton of civs who currently need one.

    I like your suggestions - interesting about the Wonder production buff. My instinct (like Firaxis, presumably) would be that +100% is too much, but the way you have it, the numbers seem fine. Maybe Firaxis should be less cautious with later game traits. The fact they come later means they are intrinsically less powerful than earlier boosts, so they should certainly be adjusted.
     
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  13. Nalain

    Nalain Chieftain

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    Grand tour : What you say sound goods in the case we do not change the principle. However i am not sure a 100% bonus for wonder will be balanced if we compare to the bonus to other civilization that have a such one. There could be a basic bonus for every city and a maximized one for the capital city. Centralization is an anchor in french culture, even now.
     
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  14. halfhalfharp

    halfhalfharp Chieftain

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    Yeah, it is very reasonable. I have added a rough comparison of Nubia and Germany vs France. They build the wonder the same speed as France do, but yet they have the potential to build a lot of troops.
    It will be impractical if we have to rely solely on production of those Uniques.
    I feel the same with Samurai too. They both suffer from high production cost and lack of an unit to upgrade from. Yet, I think Samurai is in a more embarrassing position, as its utilizing window is too small.

    Your idea of diffusing the bonus from capital to other cities is surely a good one to balance the odds. I am afraid that 100% may be quite unfair to other civs too.
     
  15. Japper007

    Japper007 Chieftain

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    Don't think a 100% buff to late game wonder production is all that strong even, compared to other production bonuses:

    Nubia: 50% to Archers.
    Vikings: 50% to ships
    Skythia: 100% cavalry production!

    Also worth bearing in mind that even with a 100% bonus to Wonders, France still ends up weaker by comparison
     
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  16. Nalain

    Nalain Chieftain

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    I spoke about other civ that gives bonus to wonder. If i am not wrong, there are at least Egypt and China.

    I agree with you even with that kind of bonuses, there is still something wrong. Grand tour can be modified to add to the wonder bonus an half cost of military district. In the whole history, the position of the country between all other great european nation made there was no other choice than to maintain a great army.
     
  17. halfhalfharp

    halfhalfharp Chieftain

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    You are right on the numbers and the idea that France is still weak by comparison, even in 100% boost.

    Unit production bonus and wonder production bonus do not really work in the same way, mainly because of the costs needed are different.
    The boost on unit construction is always a big push, considering their lower production cost.
    Thus they worth dedication of production to be spammed for conquest.

    On the other hand, wonders do not give immediate rewards towards victory, and more importantly, cost the precious time for France to build districts, units and prepare herself from invasions.
    So the long construction time costs France dearly, even if they are cut shorter to 14-16 turns per wonder.

    (I played a lot of games as Germany. With the Hansa positioned properly and with factories, I can finish Big Ben in 18 turns and still can produce a modern infantry in 6 turns.
    When France, before any buff, needs at least 22 turns for the Big Ben and 8-9 turns for a Grande Imperiale.)

    I appreciate the linkage of military with Grand Tour. It is better to contribute the production of military units somehow, to make France able to defend herself, if not trying to invade.
     
  18. Japper007

    Japper007 Chieftain

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    The other Wonder nations have a lot more going for them in the total "package" of the civ though compared to France. China has the awesome extra Builder charge, a Great early yield boost and a much better way to grab critical boosts like Feudalism. Egypt has the district bonus and a decent early UU (though I'd be fine with some buff for this civ as well.
     
  19. Denkt

    Denkt Reader

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    Im pretty sure you get double tourism from captured wonders so you actually don't have to build wonders to take advantage of that part. Also the profuction bonus only start at medieval age wonders so you can spend the early game to setup for the later wonders or ignore wonders completely.

    Unique improvement is pretty decent. If you go for culture victory you want to maximize tourism so you build these on rivers, seaside resorts on the coast and national parks everywhere else. Also the extra culture help progress along the civic tree and help cities expand their borders.

    Spying can help you in many ways so that is nice to have.

    Unique unit do not only get a combat bonus but also give great general points.

    You can play France very aggresivly as more land mean more potential tourism and you can go for other types of victories as well if you want to. The wonder bonus can help you here to get the wonders you want or atleast for a cost reduction.
     
  20. halfhalfharp

    halfhalfharp Chieftain

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    The point is, France is not good at war. The UU needs 8-11 turns to build, while your enemy can spam vast numbers of musketmen and whatever they can build up against your little invading force.
    And the wonder reduction cuts 2-3 turns only, compared to the entire 20-30 turn you need to wait.
    Germany and Nubia can catch up with ease, at the same time with a huge army at their back.
     

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