How should we help the extremely poor?

[betazed]

I made a post in another thread and thought it really needs its own thread.

From time to time in CFC OT in different threads the issue of Africa and how the world (mostly the western world) should (or should not) help comes up. Many people have many different opinions on it. I thought it would be interesting to know what they are and why they are. So here is a not-so-hypothetical scenario and I ask your opinion on it.

There is a village in sub-Saharan Africa. The population density is low. There are few mud-houses scattered here and there. The nearest town in about 20 miles. There are no road links. 30% of the people in the village suffer from AIDs and 100% of children (and about 75% of the population) suffer from seasonal malaria. The fertility rate in about 5 - 6 per woman. The soil is depleted of nutrients so although farming is done it is barely enough to keep hunger at bay. There is no clean water supply and electricity is unheard of. There are no hospitals or schools either.

Now what exactly do you think we should do (if we should do anything) to help this village and other villages like these which number in thousands in sub-Saharan Africa?

A poll is coming up.

 

[ybbor]

hmmm, when I first thought about the question I thought you were talking about people like the homeless in industrialized nations (Like the USA). But is the poll supposed to only focus on Africa?

because those are very different answers.

 

[betazed]

hmmm, when I first thought about the question I thought you were talking about people like the homeless in industrialized nations (Like the USA). But is the poll supposed to only focus on Africa?

because those are very different answers.

To make it very precise the poll is supposed to be about people who live on less than $1 a day. This is pretty much the definition of "extremely poor" from a developmental economics stand point and also how it is defined per the Millenium Development Goals. There are no such people in industrialized nations.

 

[Cannae]

I am very sensitive aboght this topic because the the Natives Americans have been killed in so amy ways and I think for that situatuion people sholud teach their culture and religion alongside our own.The Nativs are very poor and they live in some industrialized nations.

 

[Bozo Erectus]

There is a village in sub-Saharan Africa. The population density is low. There are few mud-houses scattered here and there. The nearest town in about 20 miles. There are no road links. 30% of the people in the village suffer from AIDs and 100% of children (and about 75% of the population) suffer from seasonal malaria. The fertility rate in about 5 - 6 per woman. The soil is depleted of nutrients so although farming is done it is barely enough to keep hunger at bay. There is no clean water supply and electricity is unheard of. There are no hospitals or schools either.

Now what exactly do you think we should do (if we should do anything) to help this village and other villages like these which number in thousands in sub-Saharan Africa?

Well assuming we're the ones responsible, and not their own governments, which I reject, but anyway...probably ensuring a clean and reliable water supply would be the most important thing right away. No point in providing education, electricity, vaccinations, condoms, birth control, fertilizer, etc, to dead people.

 

[Masquerouge]

Please note that first of all, living under a dollar a day, and being poor, might not be a bad thing per se. I do not see why we should assume that tribes that have lived their ways for thousands of years should want to change their way to be more like us.
We have a responsibility, however, when we introduce drastic changes to their ways of life that actually causes them to beconme slowly extinct.
In other words, I think providing electricity to an Amazonian tribe is not a good idea, but if you just ransacked their lands by turning the forest into dust because you wanted those precious woods and that gold ore, then you have a duty to help them.

Of course the question is then, help them go back to what they once were? This is a really thorny issue, as experience shows that people do not realize the troubles associated with a Western way of life until far too late. It took Western societies almost 300 years to turn their agricultural nations into fully industrialized ones, we can not reasonnably expect other nations to do so in a mere decade.

I think that consequently the best and only help that should be given is education.

 

[amadeus]

There is a village in sub-Saharan Africa. The population density is low. There are few mud-houses scattered here and there. The nearest town in about 20 miles. There are no road links. 30% of the people in the village suffer from AIDs and 100% of children (and about 75% of the population) suffer from seasonal malaria. The fertility rate in about 5 - 6 per woman. The soil is depleted of nutrients so although farming is done it is barely enough to keep hunger at bay. There is no clean water supply and electricity is unheard of. There are no hospitals or schools either.

Now what exactly do you think we should do (if we should do anything) to help this village and other villages like these which number in thousands in sub-Saharan Africa?

Relocate the village. There's no sense in keeping those people out in areas where they will only suffer. Move them into areas that can better accommodate them; it's a lot more effective than trying to build an infrastructure around an area that can't sustain human development.

 

[betazed]

Well assuming we're the ones responsible, and not their own governments,

Does it (Should it) matter who is responsible?

which I reject <snip>

You reject that the west is reponsible (for their poverty), or the west is not responsible for their poverty?

 

[Sidhe]

Once you've established the basics required to survive a freshwater well say and some medication for those suffering from malaria, then education, teach them how to survive, how to prevent infection, how condoms can prevent disease(of course you'd then have to make them freely available, not sure how practical this is, would depend how far they lived from a hospital of some sort.) How to store food to prevent disease, how to use crop rotation and natural fertilisers, how to use there environment effectively pretty much, build a school house, and educate the children in the same way as you do the parents. Education is pretty much key, the tangibles are not worth a bolt without some knowledge to back them up, teach people to live by their own means. Contrary to what some people believe this is what charities are primarily about these days.

 

[Evil Tyrant]

The troubles of some village in Africa are not my concern. There have always been villages full of starving and diseased peasants, it is nothing new. The only way for that to change is for their country to industrialize. That is something that only they and their government can do.

 

[Bozo Erectus]

Does it (Should it) matter who is responsible?

Yes to both. As soon as the responsible party is identified, the sooner help can start getting to them. IMO, just as Western governments are held accountable for the welfare and standard of living of their citizens, I see no reason for non Western governments to get a free pass, and their responsibilities assumed by Western governments. Sounds alot like colonialism, doesnt it?

You reject that the west is reponsible (for their poverty), or the west is not responsible for their poverty?

I reject the notion that my government is responsible for the happiness and well being of all humans, everywhere.

 

[betazed]

Relocate the village. There's no sense in keeping those people out in areas where they will only suffer. Move them into areas that can better accommodate them; it's a lot more effective than trying to build an infrastructure around an area that can't sustain human development.

But there are thouands of such villages - and at least a billion people living in them in total. Where would you relocate so many to? Who would finance the relocation? Even if you do relocate them what would they do in this new place? They have no marketable skills either.

I do not see why we should assume that tribes that have lived their ways for thousands of years should want to change their way to be more like us.

Not sure they want to be like us. They would like to have clean drinking water , they want education and two sqaure meals a day. That's not really like us (who cosume a per capita income of about $30000 a year which is a hundred times more than they do).

I think that consequently the best and only help that should be given is education.

On an empty stomach?

btw, I am not trying to naively shoot holes in your posts. Just trying to point out how difficult the problem is and that there might not be a simple solution.

Once you've established the basics required to survive <snip>

This is the key, isn't it? What are the basics required to survive? We have determined that $1 a day does not buy the basics and these 1 billion certainly do not have those basics. So who funds their basics today? How about tomorrow?

In fact once they have the basics we can forget about them. Historically, we have seen that people with basics can pull themselves up. Thousands of villages in China and India are testament to that fact.

 

[Sidhe]

This is the key, isn't it? What are the basics required to survive? We have determined that $1 a day does not buy the basics and these 1 billion certainly do not have those basics. So who funds their basics today? How about tomorrow?

In fact once they have the basics we can forget about them. Historically, we have seen that people with basics can pull themselves up. Thousands of villages in China and India are testament to that fact.

Well without sustained education and some sort of support what's to stop these people from just taking the basics and returning to point a at the end, yeah nice well but what now? Do we realy need to explain what basics are, enough for people to survive long enough to recieve education that will keep them alive for their lifetimes, not just until the aid dries up, but long after the aid is gone, because we all know how effective just throwing aid at a problem is.

 

[Perfection]

Sweatshops!

(Really though, longterm economic development is the only permanent solution)

 

[Eukaryote]

I went with option four, more financial aid doesn't really help because the goverment takes it for themselves so often, or just dips in a litttle. I don't belive war is the awnser, but here are some other ideas I have in mind:

1. Assassinate leaders that screwed things up.
2. Start a police action, centered on reducing corruption and crime in the coutrie's cities.
3. Make education more avalable, that slows the birth rate and spread of HIV and provides skills to the people so they can be independant.
4. Give the people carrot seeds because carrots are full of vitimain A, a very important nutriant, and carrots are drought resistant. CARROTS RULE!
5. Provide a clean relible water supply is the most important thing, you can't live without water and it's hard to live on diseased water. As Bozo said, no point in giving the people anything else if they die cause there's no water.

Now all of those methods, execpt four and five, can only really help the cites and not villages. But cites are the most important place to help because then the county can grow it's infastructure.

 

[Kozmos]

Sweep them over with a bulldozer and throw 'em into the Soul Vortex so we can transmute them into rescourses.

 

[Mastreditr111]

i agree with Bozo... first MUST be potable water, and second should be short-term food and medical aid. Third and fourth, regardless of order, are supplies and education for digging proper wells and purifying the water, because we cant ship bottled water forever. Then we can concentrate on education, beginning with farming techniques, and moving to population control techniques. Once basics are established, we can start sending aid to establish western-style schools, and as people graduate, we can give grants to begin businesses and jobs... i think we would have to go through an accelerated version of the west's development, as there is no easy way to jump straight from 1200 to 2006. HOWEVER, do NOT try to arrange any of this through an African government; the supplies and money will NEVER reach their people. Africa has the most corrupt governments on the planet by anyone's standards

 

[Cheezy the Wiz]

Anyone remember my colonialism thread? This is one reason why colonialism is/was good, or at least had the potential to be good, in the right hands. If the African nations had remained under the rule of Europe, then once today came, and we are adressing something like this, we can consult with industrialized Europe to provide for these countries, not the bankrupt nations themselves.

 

[jamiethearcher]

They need to clean up their own act. I dont want my money going to some dictator, so he can buy a 3rd porshe for his mistress.

 

[betazed]

Africa has the most corrupt governments on the planet by anyone's standards

Not so. If corruption was the problem, India would be in a worse state than Rwanda link or Malawi better than Russia. These statistics are from Transparency International.Yet most of Malawi is extremely poor with a per capita of only $600.