How smart is the AI when it comes to auto-production?

[Gary Childress]

I've gone back to the drawing board on my mod as I've lost all the files I had for it. I'm thinking about changing the production method of units.

Civinator has invented an ingenious method of auto-producing multiple unit lines per building. I'm wondering what is latest on this? How well does the AI utilize auto-producing buildings, especially ones which can produce more than one type of unit through upgrading? And espeically how well does the AI manage buildings which produce combat units?

If auto-producing buildings are given the "replaces buildings with this box checked" toggle, will the AI know when (if at all) to replace a building which autoproduces tanks with one which autoproduces fighter planes when it needs to? Or will the AI need to be allowed to "collect" auto-producing buildings in its cities in order to function properly?

Just curious on what the latest thinking is on this.

 

[Virote_Considon]

From what I've noticed in my ancient Greek scenario, the AI doesn't attach any greater weight to unit-producing improvements than to others.

If auto-producing buildings are given the "replaces buildings with this box checked" toggle, will the AI know when (if at all) to replace a building which autoproduces tanks with one which autoproduces fighter planes when it needs to?

A recent thread has found that the AI won't build buildings with the "replaces buildings" flag checked which don't give some kind of production bonus, so you'd have to give it an increase of at least 25% production

 

[Gary Childress]

Thanks Virote_Considon! I had my doubts about the auto-producion system. It is an ingenious way to limit production but I suspected that Civ AI is just not up to the task (as is the case with so many things).

 

[Virote_Considon]

I should add that I'm not entirely sure on the situation, though, so I guess with a bit of testing, we could find out for sure...

 

[kairob]

I dont think that the way that autoproduction is being used at the moment is with the "replaces buildings with this box checked" box checked.

 

[BadKharma]

Civinator does not use the replaces building option in CCM.

 

[Gary Childress]

Civinator does not use the replaces building option in CCM.

How do you prevent players from building 20 different unit auto-producing structures in one city, cranking out 20 units every few turns then? Or can that not be prevented?

 

[kairob]

Well, you don't make 20 buildings, then no one can build 20 of them?

 

[Civinator]

In CCM autoproduction is used to produce units that are better than the normal units of that era or that are unique. So you have some better equiped units to form centers of defence or attack in gameplay (p.e. machinegunners that help normal infantry in defense, Tiger tanks (or other heavy tanks) to assist normal tanks to attack special targets, amphibious units, paratroopers, artillery and so on). These units are produced by SWs or GWs and the AI is building them. It´s a very good way for random maps to limit units that should be in gameplay, but would be built in great numbers while the units that should be built in great numbers would be neclected by the AI as the other unit has better stats. So in the example above the german tank that appears in great numbers in CCM is the Pz III (and later the Panther) and they could have a spearhead of a Tiger tank Abteilung. The Russians have additional KV-2 or JS III tanks, the US B-17 and B24 bombers that are not depended on different resources, the Romans pretorians added to their normal legionairies and so on.


With this concept the AI is building these improvements. On the other side there is no need for the AI in CCM to "switch from one of these buildings to another". These buildings simply go obsolete when their time is passed.

Autoproduction with normal buildings should be handled carefully, or you will soon have such masses of units that your game can be considerably slowed down.

My advanced autoproduction system, where a simple building can produce whole lines of different units seems to work very well in the system itself. But CCM even now is haunted by game-freezes that seem to be caused by the immobile basic units that are used to upgrade to the different generations of units with the king-flag and that appear sometime when the AI tries to load such a unit into a ship. To set these units to be "unloadable" (p.e. the foot and tactical flag for such a unit and no ship that can transport such a unit) seems not to help. To drop down the "load-option" of these immobile units helps, but now the AI frequently didn´t upgrade these units as it should or even worse, the AI killed these units even if these units were set to be undisbandable. At least one of the reasons for this is, that with the removal of the load option, the AI doesn´t have an AI tactic, that it accepts for upgrading that unit. Interesting is, that the AI artillery-tactics flag, that doesn´t need the load-option, is not accepted by the AI in triggering upgrades of units that have this flag for settlers or workers. At present it´s tested how there is the behaviour of the AI for upgrading normal units with this AI-tactic.

 

[Madeira]

Civinator, I've done some testing in the past concerning AI upgrading units, to come up with a way for the AI to upgrade the building created worker units to settlers with the king flag (unbuildable), I came to the conclusion that the AI only seems to upgrade, at least quickly, if the worker has the offensive flag, so I had to make the worker a Peasant with attack and defense, and the AI will now upgrade it to the Settler when they have the money.

 

[Civinator]

Civinator, I've done some testing in the past concerning AI upgrading units, to come up with a way for the AI to upgrade the building created worker units to settlers with the king flag (unbuildable), I came to the conclusion that the AI only seems to upgrade, at least quickly, if the worker has the offensive flag, so I had to make the worker a Peasant with attack and defense, and the AI will now upgrade it to the Settler when they have the money.

Yes this is the setting for settlers and workers in CCM. The offensive flag is the AI-tactic that needs the load option to work. In CCM the upgrade costs for these units are zero.

 

[Tank_Guy#3]

@ Civinator Did you take a page from El Justo's book with regards to auto-producing buildings or is it the other way around?

Regardless, CCM is sounding more and more awesome with each post about it!

 

[DJ Bonebraker]

How do you prevent players from building 20 different unit auto-producing structures in one city, cranking out 20 units every few turns then? Or can that not be prevented?

Make them Small Wonders instead of buildings OR make them resource-dependent... That's what I did with the Final Fantasy mod... I.e. there's a lot of buildings that autoproduce flag units, but they all require a specific resource to be in the city radius, and for most of my unit-producing structures, they are Small Wonders that require certain techs and/or buildings in the city to build, but since they are Small Wonders, you can only ever have one at a time.

 

[Civinator]

@ Civinator Did you take a page from El Justo's book with regards to auto-producing buildings or is it the other way around?

Regardless, CCM is sounding more and more awesome with each post about it!

El Justo and me are friends and we are helping us mutually with our mods and scenarios.

CCM has a lot of new stuff for Civ 3 and not all of this was made public yet. On the other side CCM is still haunted by freezes, what caused a delay in the public betatest of now about nearly two months.

 

[Vuldacon]

In EFZI2, I use Wonders as the Auto Producing Structures and they also have other "perks". The AI builds them but as with all "Wonders", the AI tends to build them later when the Building is secure so Defending and Fighting Units do not have to be built and the AI can afford to build the Wonder.

To get around this, I pre-placed some of the "Key Locations" (Wonders) in buildings and many of them are Obsolete to the Zombies while others are Only for the Zombies.

Auto Produced Units, IF set with Tested Timing for how often the Unit is Produced, is a Good method to gain Units as well as have control over what the AI or human can build.

Civinator... Not sure why your game is Freezing but perhaps there is a limit to how many King Units that can exist. IF so, I am not aware of it and have not seen a problem with having many of them. The other thing to look into is the upgrade lines. Perhaps there is a problem there. IF the Freeze happens when there are many Auto producing buildings and Units that Upgrade...this seems to be a clue.
It would help to know what was done in the game before the Freezes started.

 

[Civinator]

Vuldacon, you are right and we are working to stop these freezes, The next CCM-test-biq will be tested in some days. If we can´t stop the freezes to the end of the month, I reflect, if I do the prebetatest public so that every civer who is interested can try to help.

 

[SoAB]

Yeah, I tend to use small wonders to auto produce units in the AC mod. And the A.I. will build them. Actually, I use the small wonder as a "base." The actual improvement that auto-produces units requires that small wonder to be built.

Hence you can simulate a factory or produce line for any particular unit- A factory that can be destroyed and rebuilt. To make sure the AI builds such improvements, I check off the cultural "Other Characteristics" boxes of the small wonder and the improvement.

 

[Vuldacon]

Civinator... I hope it is not merely a units_32.pcx Unit Placement Problem. That usually just Crashes the Game but you said your game is Freezing... I am sure you have checked all buildings that Auto Produce units and the Upgrades for all the units.
...Are there any possible Prerequisite Clashes for the Auto Producing buildings or Units or their Upgrades?

 

[Civinator]

Civinator... I hope it is not merely a units_32.pcx Unit Placement Problem. That usually just Crashes the Game but you said your game is Freezing... I am sure you have checked all buildings that Auto Produce units and the Upgrades for all the units.
...Are there any possible Prerequisite Clashes for the Auto Producing buildings or Units or their Upgrades?

Vuldacon, I sent you a pm.

 

[tom2050]

Civinator... I hope it is not merely a units_32.pcx Unit Placement Problem. That usually just Crashes the Game but you said your game is Freezing... I am sure you have checked all buildings that Auto Produce units and the Upgrades for all the units.
...Are there any possible Prerequisite Clashes for the Auto Producing buildings or Units or their Upgrades?

I had a 'freezing problem' when I was testing a unit I made. The unit had a problem due to me not sizing it correctly in Flicster, which was a fairly simple fix, and no longer occurs. But before that, whenever the screen was about to scroll to 'show' that unit, it would freeze. It could be a possible unit problem, but could be something similar to what happened to me or something else... something to think about.

Perhaps test each unit to make sure they all show ok individually.