How to fix Civ5 Research and Trade system

[tommynt]

Ok here is how civ at higher lvls (deity wins and fast wins on other lvls) is played:

Sign RAs with EVERY civ out there
Gather as many scientists as possible and keep them
Trade everything (lux and strat) for pure gold to finance RAs again and again
"Blub" every tech past electricity in 1 turn with some ending RA 6-7 scientists used in 1 turn and Rationalism finisher.

This is neither realistic NOR fun, late game SHOULD actually be played and how realistic is it that Einstein, Newton and all those other guys had their great ideas all in 1 day.

FIX:
No more option to get full techs:
-Scientists: Option to get free tech just not there, Academies and GA are good enough options. Make Academies getting stronger over time. Like starting with 6 in class and + 2 for each era u reach.
-Reasearch Agreements: No more get x Amount of science at end. Instead a fixed % of other civs bakkers is flown to each other (like 10%) every turn. U have to pay a fixed amount of g/t to keep that flow (like 6g/t +2) more for each era u advance.
Trades in general:
-No more 30t lasting deals. Every deals last as long as either side cancels it. Only g/t for res deals. If some1 cancels a deal he get Diplo penalty depending how fast he cancels the deals (no more negative effect after 60 turns).
-Get also rid of free techs from Oxford (give it +15% teching instead) and scientific revolution (make Academies stronger with it). PT and Rati starter may increase the % u get from RA (like 5% each) or get totaly revamped.

Adavntages:
No more retrading every 30turns.
No need for stuff like "median" pushing.
Actually modern era is played, not "skipped"
No more cheese ai plundering golds.
No anoyance about AI declaring war 1t before RAs end as it doesnt even know how RA work
Way more realistic setting, science output increases over time, no possibilities to get techs in 1 turn.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

Ok here is how civ at higher lvls (deity wins and fast wins on other lvls) is played:

Sign RAs with EVERY civ out there
Gather as many scientists as possible and keep them
Trade everything (lux and strat) for pure gold to finance RAs again and again
"Blub" every tech past electricity in 1 turn with some ending RA 6-7 scientists used in 1 turn and Rationalism finisher.

This is neither realistic NOR fun, late game SHOULD actually be played and how realistic is it that Einstein, Newton and all those other guys had their great ideas all in 1 day.

FIX:
No more option to get full techs:
-Scientists: Option to get free tech just not there, Academies and GA are good enough options. Make Academies getting stronger over time. Like starting with 6 in class and + 2 for each era u reach.
-Reasearch Agreements: No more get x Amount of science at end. Instead a fixed % of other civs bakkers is flown to each other (like 10%) every turn. U have to pay a fixed amount of g/t to keep that flow (like 6g/t +2) more for each era u advance.
Trades in general:
-No more 30t lasting deals. Every deals last as long as either side cancels it. Only g/t for res deals. If some1 cancels a deal he get Diplo penalty depending how fast he cancels the deals (no more negative effect after 60 turns).
-Get also rid of free techs from Oxford (give it +15% teching instead) and scientific revolution (make Academies stronger with it). PT and Rati starter may increase the % u get from RA (like 5% each) or get totaly revamped.

Adavntages:
No more retrading every 30turns.
No need for stuff like "median" pushing.
Actually modern era is played, not "skipped"
No more cheese ai plundering golds.
No anoyance about AI declaring war 1t before RAs end as it doesnt even know how RA work
Way more realistic setting, science output increases over time, no possibilities to get techs in 1 turn.

Generally I agree (I'd make the Academies 4, +4 with Education, Scientific Method, Electricity, Computers)

I would keep the free techs from Rationalism. (maybe make Oxford give one time +1000 flask boost)

Great Scientists should probably get some Other 'instant research' ability though. (instant but NOT dependent on Tech cost, instead something like Research= 50+10*Population of your empire)

 

[elprofesor]

Or make GS give as much beakers as a RA would give you, and make the PT and Rationalism opener boost both by 12.5% of the tech, instead of 25% for RAs only.
That would nerf them both. A fix would be needed for Babylon, though.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

Or make GS give as much beakers as a RA would give you, and make the PT and Rationalism opener boost both by 12.5% of the tech, instead of 25% for RAs only.
That would nerf them both. A fix would be needed for Babylon, though.

No, the fundamental problem is that GS/RA benefit is much better later on.. particularly GS because you can save them.

To do that, neither RA nor GS should give a benefit that is based on Tech Cost... instead their benefit should be based on total beakers produced or population.

 

[Noatz]

GS's special should be "hurry research" instead of "discover technology" and gives a specific amount of beakers toward the tech you are currently researching (much like the GE's "hurry production". The amount ought to be consistent with the highest value tech available for research in the turn that GS was born; that way you can still use GS's in the same way you do now, only you can't sit on them and chain bulb your way through the entire Industrial Era in one turn.

They should also edit the Industial techs to make it less simple to chain bulb in this fashion, right now you can do it in 4 techs.

 

[elprofesor]

Well, the big advantage of GS is that they give you the full tech, so you can chain them for amazing consequences. If they only give you a proportion of the cost, you would still need to research the other part, so you still need a strong beaker production.
The problem with RAs is that they can be massed, plus they are crazy effective when coupled with PT and rationalism. So just nerfing them a bit may be enough. Or link them better with diplomacy, since wide empires tend to do worse in the political scene.

Don't get me wrong, I do see the point of making these dependant (sp?) on your total beakers, and I especially like very much the idea, already proposed in a myriad of different ways, that RAs should give you beakers depending on the other's side beaker production, which makes a lot of sense.
BUT (and there's a but), tech is not like culture or gold. You can survive with next to none of those, but you can't survive without beakers. And now, in Civ5, base beakers production is linked to population (and later, infrastructure); thus you need other ways to get beakers that AREN'T directly based on population, or else a lot of empires simply won't be viable (notably small ones).

You may argue that GS or RA spam do benefit more large empires than small ones though, which certainly is a problem, but via making them population based, you aren't solving this problem...

 

[KrikkitTwo]

Well, the big advantage of GS is that they give you the full tech, so you can chain them for amazing consequences. If they only give you a proportion of the cost, you would still need to research the other part, so you still need a strong beaker production.
The problem with RAs is that they can be massed, plus they are crazy effective when coupled with PT and rationalism. So just nerfing them a bit may be enough. Or link them better with diplomacy, since wide empires tend to do worse in the political scene.

Don't get me wrong, I do see the point of making these dependant (sp?) on your total beakers, and I especially like very much the idea, already proposed in a myriad of different ways, that RAs should give you beakers depending on the other's side beaker production, which makes a lot of sense.
BUT (and there's a but), tech is not like culture or gold. You can survive with next to none of those, but you can't survive without beakers. And now, in Civ5, base beakers production is linked to population (and later, infrastructure); thus you need other ways to get beakers that AREN'T directly based on population, or else a lot of empires simply won't be viable (notably small ones).

You may argue that GS or RA spam do benefit more large empires than small ones though, which certainly is a problem, but via making them population based, you aren't solving this problem...

Well to get beakers not linked to YOUR population get RAs.

Perhaps a GS should give beakers linked to the World Population?

The problem is not that GS/RA spam benefit large empires more... the problem is that base science is hurt.

And tall empires ARE still ok, you just need a bigger role of infrastructure. (and GS are linked to # of cities so that is worse for tall empires)

 

[tommynt]

sadly not a single useful reply.

Seems like everyone would just like to keep the instant benefit from scientists.
Its just an overpowered option no matter how u turn it ....

 

[Windsor]

sadly not a single useful reply.

Seems like everyone would just like to keep the instant benefit from scientists.
Its just an overpowered option no matter how u turn it ....

If you define useful as "people who completely agree with me" then you didn't get much useful replies.

But does the bulb have to be overpowered? Was it overpowered in Civ4? I don't think so. It was powerful, but so was other uses and base science rate didn't become irrelevant.

 

[tommynt]

If you define useful as "people who completely agree with me" then you didn't get much useful replies.

But does the bulb have to be overpowered? Was it overpowered in Civ4? I don't think so. It was powerful, but so was other uses and base science rate didn't become irrelevant.

I dont want people agree with me, but discuss the topic not "other ideas", maybe the player base reading here is just not able to see HOW easy and fast and dumb it to get 15 techs in 1 TURN

Thats just completly broken, only reason why its not changed in some previous patch is that most of civ players are not able to play at a high lvl and use this op feature to its full advantage.

 

[Rex_Mundi]

But does the bulb have to be overpowered? Was it overpowered in Civ4? I don't think so. It was powerful, but so was other uses and base science rate didn't become irrelevant.

The bulb was less powerfull in Civ 4 because it did not provide a full tech later in the game, it was capped at some beakers.
In Civ 4 there were more technologies.
In Civ 5 the late game technologies cost relatively more compared to Civ 4.

All of this means that you get more out of instant late game techs in Civ 5 compared to 4.

 

[Noatz]

I dont want people agree with me, but discuss the topic not "other ideas", maybe the player base reading here is just not able to see HOW easy and fast and dumb it to get 15 techs in 1 TURN

Thats just completly broken, only reason why its not changed in some previous patch is that most of civ players are not able to play at a high lvl and use this op feature to its full advantage.

Apprantly you didn't actually read all the replies; what I posted would lessen ridiculous chain bulbing. Stockpiled GS's would produce only a fraction of the beakers for Industrial era techs. With scientific revolution + Oxford you could still bulb to modern, but it would be harder to do and much less effective than currently.

 

[tommynt]

Apprantly you didn't actually read all the replies; what I posted would lessen ridiculous chain bulbing. Stockpiled GS's would produce only a fraction of the beakers for Industrial era techs. With scientific revolution + Oxford you could still bulb to modern, but it would be harder to do and much less effective than currently

but why be able to bulb at all?
Its gives a totaly unfair advantage over ai which cant bulb or wont do it effective at least

 

[chazzycat]

Agree something needs to change. RAs should take a page out of MOO2's book - a percentage booster to BPT that benefits the less advanced civ more.

As for scientists, the problem is actually that the late techs cost escalate too hard. Scale that back a little bit and you should see less scientist stockpiling.

Also making Artists & Merchants relatively stronger would help a LOT.

 

[elprofesor]

but why be able to bulb at all?
Its gives a totaly unfair advantage over ai which cant bulb or wont do it effective at least

The fact that AIs don't exploit to the max a mechanic doesn't mean the mechanic itself is broken. AIs don't know how to war efficiently, that doesn't mean that warfare is broken.
And I did put forward the idea of GS getting as much beakers as RAs do now, that would diminish a lot the late game bulbing.

Agree something needs to change. RAs should take a page out of MOO2's book - a percentage booster to BPT that benefits the less advanced civ more.

As for scientists, the problem is actually that the late techs cost escalate too hard. Scale that back a little bit and you should see less scientist stockpiling.

Also making Artists & Merchants relatively stronger would help a LOT.

I agree completely with what you said, especially with the GA/GM part. Though reducing late game techs might not be a solution by itself. For example, devs increased a lot the cost of Globalization to make Diplo victories come much later than before (they used to be the fastest way to win, independently of the Victory you were pursuing from turn 1).

 

[KrikkitTwo]

but why be able to bulb at all?
Its gives a totaly unfair advantage over ai which cant bulb or wont do it effective at least

Because it is good to have an "Instant benefit" v. a "per turn benefit"

The problem is people tend to stockpile G Scientists because you can get Much more out of them later

The reason for that is that
1. G Scientist yield is based on tech Cost
2. Techs get Much more expensive later on in the game

Now if Scientist "bulb" yield was based on something else (Total Beakers, Total population, fixed amount, etc.) then people would use the scientists soon to get the benefit Now (benefit Now> benefit Later, if they are similar amounts of benefits)

There is a similar issue with RAs, but you can't Stockpile those... however, they do have the problem of making "beakers" irrelevant once tech cost gets too high (because beakers take way too long, and you only need RA/GS)


So if RAs and Bulbs were not connected to tech cost then they couldn't be 'gamed' as easily.. and the AI could reasonably use them.

Now eliminating lump sum gold deals is also a good idea, as well as boosting the Great improvements
4 base +4 with a tech in each post-classical era is probably about right)

 

[tommynt]

Because it is good to have an "Instant benefit" v. a "per turn benefit"

sure its "good" for the player - but is it good for the game?

sure having a giant robot in turn 0 would be good for the player - but would it make game more fun?

 

[elprofesor]

Good point, but what is good for the game is to have a choice. Only one of them, or overpowering one of them (which may be the present case) makes a bad game.
Frankly, any one-time idea is a good idea, as long as it can compete with the academy, and viceversa.

 

[Camikaze]

sadly not a single useful reply.

Moderator Action: This isn't constructive. If you disagree with the ideas others have posted, address them in a civil manner.

 

[uigaw423]

This just came to me, but what if the solution to the problem is to give them the same restraint as a culture bomb. (obviously not the 1 tile thing). What I mean is you can only culture bomb 1 time every 10 turns. What if you could only bulb 1 time every 10 turns? This would at least slow down the late game rush and saving up GS.