I'd like to see three changes to Norway:
1.) Berserker should simply be a swordsman replacement: the era might not line up historically accurately, but now that swordsmen got buffed with the last patch, swordsman and berserkers have the same combat strength. The other bonuses (along with the penalty) aren't enough to make this a disproportionately strong unique unit if it was simply a swordsman replacement.
2.) they should get a trading bonus, and a rather potent one. Along with trade being a rather intricate part of Norse history, this would also give them the infrastructure bonus that would help them become more of a middle-of-the-pack civ, instead of one of the weaker ones. I'd propose something akin to the Kumasi suzerein bonus (trade routes get +1gold/+2culture per specialty district in the origin city) but have it pertain to trade routes to other civilizations instead of city states, and maybe reduce it to +1gold/+1culture per district.
3.) The civilization ignores war weariness. They were a warrior race, the populace rejoiced when their warriors went on raids and looked forward to the spoils they returned with. As such, it doesn't make sense that you'd have to appease a populace in response to something that they celebrated. If this is too strong of a bonus, they might have a slightly elevated warmonger penalty with other civilzations.
Maybe these are good suggestions and maybe not. Either way, I would like to see them change in such a way that they become comparable to the other civilization choices, not superior. One of the problems that we face every time we do a thread like this is getting carried away and make suggestions that would make one of the weaker civs into the strongest one in the game, and I'd prefer to avoid that. With the exception of the dlc civs (which they made more powerful in order to sell more dlcs) and one or two other civs (really just Scythia), I think the rest of the original civilizations are pretty well balanced, moreso than most of the previous civilization games; some are a little better and some are a little worse. The exception is pretty much just Norway, which, while it's opinion, is a pretty substantial drop below the status quo that the other original civilizations all hover around. Maybe you could include Pericles's Greece as well, but they still have some bonuses that can really shine in the right circumstances.
These guys are as map dependent as they come. On a water based map, they guys have the ability to wreck other players. 2 Longships working side by side can capture a coastal city in the ancient, provided it doesn't have a warrior/walls on it. 3 can take a coastal capital. This, along with the fact that a full-health longship can take 2 galleys on it's own, means that there really is no defense against Norway's navy until Classical/Midieval. Even walls can be be countered with another Boat.
Coastal Cities are pretty guarenteed on Water-maps, other maps not so much. If I were to give them a boost, it would be to their land capabilities more than anything. Maybe give the Stave Church more faith or something.
Oh, and don't bother building a harbor against Norway. They'll just smash it, thus nullifying your own navy.
Persia has a bonus to internal routes. Spain and Peter have a bonus to intercontinental routes to civs. Norway could have a bonus to international routes to City-States.
Historically, the Thing was an important governing assembly place that was also used for political discussions and decisions, lawmaking, settling of disputes and feuds, public religious rites and commerce. There were Things for each region as well as larger assemblies nationally.
If in-game Norway was committed to religion not multiple pantheons, Things wouldn't be available and Holy Sites could have stave churches and conventional worship buildings instead. If they were committed to multiple pantheons, and not religion, stave churches would be unavailable but temples would be OK and the Thing would automatically be the available worship building.
Things would give only +1 faith but +2 culture and +2 gold, and internal trade routes to or from that city would give a further +1 culture and +1 gold.
Norway can start conquer about 5~10T earlier by his cross-ocean UA on a continent or island map.
Also, Norway can launch an early Caravel+Battling Ram Invasion due to the UA for Norway Caravels to Pillage Coastal Farms.
These are big advantages, so I think there's no need to "fix" it.
There're negative civs such as Kongo or Egypt, which are even weaker than Blank Civs. Those civs truly needs fixing.
Norway can start conquer about 5~10T earlier by his cross-ocean UA on a continent or island map.
Also, Norway can launch an early Caravel+Battling Ram Invasion due to the UA for Norway Caravels to Pillage Coastal Farms.
These are big advantages, so I think there's no need to "fix" it.
There're negative civs such as Kongo or Egypt, which are even weaker than Blank Civs. Those civs truly needs fixing.
Kongo is by no stretch of the imagination a "negative civ" unless you want to win a Religious Victory, in which case it's a non-starter. Religion is not even nearly important enough to other victory types that Mvemba's penalty outweighs his huge bonuses towards the cultural side of things.
Kongo is by no stretch of the imagination a "negative civ" unless you want to win a Religious Victory, in which case it's a non-starter. Religion is not even nearly important enough to other victory types that Mvemba's penalty outweighs his huge bonuses towards the cultural side of things.
UA: You can't get benefit from captured Holy Sites, which may cause you unable to purchase soldiers using faith in Mid and Late Game, a serious nerf.
UD: They consumes your precious forests and jungles, which can otherwise be good source of Production by cutting them off. Moreover, Kongo cannot use Public Works to make money. That's quite a huge amount, considering you may have 40~60 cities at that time, each with 200 Gold and you lose 10,000, making it difficult to get units from upgrades. That's why this UD is negative.
UU: -1 strength with +20 hammer cost, that UU is negative UU, too.
In my opinion, Kongo is the case that ALL OF its attributes are negative.
UA: You can't get benefit from captured Holy Sites, which may cause you unable to purchase soldiers using faith in Mid and Late Game, a serious nerf.
UD: They consumes your precious forests and jungles, which can otherwise be good source of Production by cutting them off. Moreover, Kongo cannot use Public Works to make money. That's quite a huge amount, considering you may have 40~60 cities at that time, each with 200 Gold and you lose 10,000. That's why this UD is negative.
UU: -1 strength with +20 hammer cost, that UU is negative UU, too.
In my opinion, Kongo is the case that ALL OF its attributes are negative.
For Relics, in fact you don't get relics very often. Considering using apostles to matyre almost impossible for Kongo, you can't always expect a nearby Kandy . The most possible case is that you got 0 relic throughout the game.
For Archaelogists, they come up too late that the food and hammer bonus becomes neglectable at that time.
For *2 points towards merchants and culture great peoples. I simply say that Commerical Hubs are never worth their hammer investments so I never build them.
Theatre Square provide *2 GPP looks good, but it simply doesn't help you compete the very first 60 point Writer against Deity opponents. This *2 ends up with about 1 more writer I think. Maybe together with less than 1 more Artist or Musician. Thanks to Kongo's 5 slot-palace we can hold these great works.
So altogether the positive side for Kongo is maybe 20 more tourism/turn in the end. For culture victory you may need 300 foreign tourists at T180. The UA for Kongo may grant you about 10 out of the 300 total, considering you'll be having ~600 tourism at the endgame, which means ~4 tourists/turn. Altogether these wonderful Kongo UA actually saves you 2~3 turn in the whole game if you choose a cultural victory!
Considering so much negative sides that will destroy your plan, the positive side of Kongo is comparably too weak I think.
In my opinion, I think even Norway may be a better option for a Deity Continental Cultural Victory than Kongo( even if with all of its positive sides remained and negative sides canceled)
For Relics, in fact you don't get relics very often. Considering using apostles to matyre almost impossible for Kongo, you can't always expect a nearby Kandy . The most possible case is that you got 0 relic throughout the game.
I have a relic in more games that I have none. And you do get quite some free apostles as Kongo... If you say 40-60 cities in your game, that probably amount to the same number of apostles since you get one for every Theatre Square or Mbanza.
For *2 points towards merchants and culture great peoples. I simply say that Commerical Hubs are never worth their hammer investments so I never build them.
The Ngao Mbemba is actually a decent unit, I don't get why it gets hate just because of the less strength. So many players rely on archers for their earlier aggressions and the Ngao Mbemba is the perfect counter to that.
The Mbanza is a great improvement. Ok, you can't chop all the jungle, so that's a downside.
But it's
a) cheaper
b) comes a whole lot earlier than the neighborhood (which allows for more (cheaper) districts earlier)
c) doesn't rely on appeal
d) yields gold and food
I'm sorry to lead this thread further off topic, I won't continue the off topic discussion here after this post.
I have a relic in more games that I have none. And you do get quite some free apostles as Kongo... If you say 40-60 cities in your game, that probably amount to the same number of apostles since you get one for every Theatre Square or Mbanza.
Food - yes, hammers - no.
Waaah?
The Ngao Mbemba is actually a decent unit, I don't get why it gets hate just because of the less strength. So many players rely on archers for their earlier aggressions and the Ngao Mbemba is the perfect counter to that.
The Mbanza is a great improvement. Ok, you can't chop all the jungle, so that's a downside.
But it's
a) cheaper
b) comes a whole lot earlier than the neighborhood (which allows for more (cheaper) districts earlier)
c) doesn't rely on appeal
d) yields gold and food
Neighborhoods grant you ~200 cash instantly. You even don't need to finish them, just placing them grant you that amount of cash. So Mbanza is a very big nerf.
UA: You can't get benefit from captured Holy Sites, which may cause you unable to purchase soldiers using faith in Mid and Late Game, a serious nerf.
UD: They consumes your precious forests and jungles, which can otherwise be good source of Production by cutting them off. Moreover, Kongo cannot use Public Works to make money. That's quite a huge amount, considering you may have 40~60 cities at that time, each with 200 Gold and you lose 10,000, making it difficult to get units from upgrades. That's why this UD is negative.
UU: -1 strength with +20 hammer cost, that UU is negative UU, too.
In my opinion, Kongo is the case that ALL OF its attributes are negative.
I agree, and not sure why others don't accept these points.
I really find the Leader bonus to be poorly executed. Saying "nothing is negative about Kongo unless you are after a religious victory" is dismissing a lot of cons with being unable to build holy sites. Many beliefs (including pantheons) are dependent on having a holy site or a steady faith income for making purchases. Worship buildings go right out the window. I suppose these are not cons to players who operate under the conviction that holy sites aren't worth building anyway, but IMO they're selling them short.
So, it's pretty much just downside. The business with them getting apostles after building theaters and mbanzas is generally annoying. I can wind up not having a religion on the turn when the district is completed, or conversely I can wind up spawning apostles I really don't need because the religion being spread to me is worthless to Kongo (as so many will be). Better to have mbanzas generate faith, then the Kongo could buy their apostles when they want them, and could benefit from some of those enhancer beliefs they're copying..
Neighborhoods grant you ~200 cash instantly. You even don't need to finish them, just placing them grant you that amount of cash. So Mbanza is a very big nerf.
... only if you use a policy slot for that card. And 200 gold isn't that much, isn't it? The +100% from commercial hub buildings for example will yield much more.
I agree, and not sure why others don't accept these points.
Saying "nothing is negative about Kongo unless you are after a religious victory" is dismissing a lot of cons with being unable to build holy sites. Many beliefs (including pantheons) are dependent on having a holy site or a steady faith income for making purchases. Worship buildings go right out the window. I suppose these are not cons to players who operate under the conviction that holy sites aren't worth building anyway, but IMO they're selling them short.
I usually build a lot of holy sites, even when not going for a RV, and so I miss the faith when playing Kongo. But I also think that they get enough bonuses in exchange for that to still make them a strong civ. But as you say, you need to be a bit lucky with what beliefs you get or actively invest and spread them. Some beliefs are really great for Kongo though, like Reliquaries, Tithe etc.
... only if you use a policy slot for that card. And 200 gold isn't that much, isn't it? The +100% from commercial hub buildings for example will yield much more.
I usually build a lot of holy sites, even when not going for a RV, and so I miss the faith when playing Kongo. But I also think that they get enough bonuses in exchange for that to still make them a strong civ. But as you say, you need to be a bit lucky with what beliefs you get or actively invest and spread them. Some beliefs are really great for Kongo though, like Reliquaries, Tithe etc.
Well, to me the leader ability is pound-for-pound negative, and that's pretty much my annoyance with them It merits revision. If they could generate faith, they could at least fish out the relic promotions.
The other bonuses are fine, relative to what others civ's get. All those double GP points are certainly worthwhile.
... only if you use a policy slot for that card. And 200 gold isn't that much, isn't it? The +100% from commercial hub buildings for example will yield much more.
I usually build a lot of holy sites, even when not going for a RV, and so I miss the faith when playing Kongo. But I also think that they get enough bonuses in exchange for that to still make them a strong civ. But as you say, you need to be a bit lucky with what beliefs you get or actively invest and spread them. Some beliefs are really great for Kongo though, like Reliquaries, Tithe etc.
You just use that card for 1T and then you get 5,000~10,000 cash instantly and you can switch to another card. Kongo cannot get that money. That's why I consider Kongo UD as a giant malus.
You just use that card for 1T and then you get 5,000~10,000 cash instantly and you can switch to another card. Kongo cannot get that money. That's why I consider Kongo UD as a giant malus.
Sounds like the thing that needs to be fixed is not Kongo, but this card. Should give the gold when a neighborhood is completed, not when it is started.
Norway is an early game powerhouse, along the lines of Scythia, Sumeria, or Persia. Provided there are at least a couple of other civs within range of their navy.
I played the giant earth map with them, and found them OP. The other civs couldn't even keep up repairs fast enough, not even with mines and pastures.
And a navy is very mobile. I could raid Rome, go back and raid England, then go back to Rome, etc etc.
Doesn't matter if some civs are inland. You just need one or two to give you the gains you want.
Well, to me the leader ability is pound-for-pound negative, and that's pretty much my annoyance with them It merits revision. If they could generate faith, they could at least fish out the relic promotions.
The other bonuses are fine, relative to what others civ's get. All those double GP points are certainly worthwhile.
I'm sorry to lead this thread further off topic, I won't continue the off topic discussion here after this post.
I have a relic in more games that I have none. And you do get quite some free apostles as Kongo... If you say 40-60 cities in your game, that probably amount to the same number of apostles since you get one for every Theatre Square or Mbanza.
Food - yes, hammers - no.
Waaah?
The Ngao Mbemba is actually a decent unit, I don't get why it gets hate just because of the less strength. So many players rely on archers for their earlier aggressions and the Ngao Mbemba is the perfect counter to that.
The Mbanza is a great improvement. Ok, you can't chop all the jungle, so that's a downside.
But it's
a) cheaper
b) comes a whole lot earlier than the neighborhood (which allows for more (cheaper) districts earlier)
c) doesn't rely on appeal
d) yields gold and food
For the relic, I simply don't know how you can get early relics in most games. Since goody huts only give you 5% percent to have a relic. Are you going to say that you get ~20 goody huts per game?
Anything except for tourism is useless in such a late time. When you finish filling your museums, that means you have built that archealogist and let it worked for about 10T. At that time victory is quite close and the only thing you need is to rush up tourism. I can't understand why +2 hammer in such a late time make sense, since a city often finishes its building mission after it has finished the archealogist.
Ngao Mbemba is undoubtedly negative. For an early Swordman Rush at ~T30~35, you'll not face any archers or walls. In fact, early Swordman Rush means taking the time before AI go for walls at ~T40. Therefore Kongo UU is negative.
If you're not going for an early Swordman Rush, why not choose to use Horseman or Knights?
For *2 points towards merchants and culture great peoples. I simply say that Commerical Hubs are never worth their hammer investments so I never build them.
They provide the base for building powerful gold buildings. By endgame, it's not unrealistic for each commercial hub to be worth ~30 GPT (policies will get you there). Then they grant another trade route, with varying bonuses including a tourism bonus. And then there are the mid-game great merchants like the Bank dude (2 great work slots, plus he cranks out a market and bank for free) and the extra economic policy dude.
And then the gold city states jack them up by like 8 GPT for 6 envoys.
They provide the base for building powerful gold buildings. By endgame, it's not unrealistic for each commercial hub to be worth ~30 GPT (policies will get you there). Then they grant another trade route, with varying bonuses including a tourism bonus. And then there are the mid-game great merchants like the Bank dude (2 great work slots, plus he cranks out a market and bank for free) and the extra economic policy dude.
And then the gold city states jack them up by like 8 GPT for 6 envoys.
I never build any commercial hubs. Considering for me, a typical game will end in T120~150(domination/religious) or T180(Science/Culture) at standard speed, there's hardly any time for Commercial Hubs to make use.
~30GPT seems good, but in fact even a simple Privateer with 15 EXP grant you 50GPT, while a Spy grant almost 60GPT. Moreover, they're all less costly than Commercial Hubs since there're policies to speed up their production.
Also, the policy slot you have to fill worker+30%, science+100%, campus+100%, Money+35%, District+1Culture, Scout+1Amenty, etc. There's no slot left for a trade route bonus, nor for a commercial hub building bonus. The same thing happens for envoys, you have to have 6 envoys in every scientific minor civ, so you don't have other free envoys. So in fact even the 30GPT is not achieved.
Merchants are less effective than other great people, too. The best merchant may be Adam Smith, but even if he outperforms other merchants a lot, you can use engineer Eiffel to hurry Forbidden Palace and simply get more hammers,culture, tourism, while achieving the same effect than Adam Smith. So you see, the best merchant is even worse than an average engineer.
That's why Commercial Hubs worth nothing. Money is important, but you always have better ways making money than wasting your hammers on these trash.
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