How to get defensive pacts?

andersw

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AI's seem to be able to form the most non sensical defensive pacts so atleast sometimes I thought it would be available to me but I guess I suck.

Have you been successful with getting (and maybe even keep) defensive pact(s)?
Now I play a bit much warmongering, usually get a few friendships which later on ends with denounce.

The few non warmonger games I've tried have generally been met by mass invasion.

So basically, what was your strategy to get defensive pact(s) and retain it.
What civ, difficulty, policy route did you go for, and did you in the end win?
 
The AI only really seems to respect strength. If you have a big enough army they will often offer pacts, even if you used that army to attack other players earlier.

You can sometimes get them off friends but that is way more inconsistent.

The problem is if you have a big enough army you don't really need a pact so I'm not sure you can really it a strategy to get them, but it is possible even on deity to get them.
 
The AI only really seems to respect strength. If you have a big enough army they will often offer pacts, even if you used that army to attack other players earlier.

You can sometimes get them off friends but that is way more inconsistent.

The problem is if you have a big enough army you don't really need a pact so I'm not sure you can really it a strategy to get them, but it is possible even on deity to get them.

The only ones I see are when a very small "dead" AI offers defensive pact because it wants help vs a steam roller.
 
If you are #1 in military you can usually get a DP. Sometimes the AI will be stingy.

When I'm 1st in military its sort of irrelevant.
But ok I think I see the point, play peaceful and build up a HUGE army.
Still on higher difficulties a couple of AIs will almost certainly have more army.
 
Yeah DP aren't very useful currently. If you can get them you don't need them.

Army value does scale with tech so you can have a bigger army even on deity but you really don't need it at that point.
 
I find that normally I get defensive pacts if I've managed to maintain a friendship for a long time (and not have my land coveted by them, etc.), and avoid most other negative diplo modifiers, and if we have a common enemy. That second point in particular is important. I've never made like trifecta pacts or anything, but you can sometimes just have one AI as your friend for a long time and then you can get a defensive pact.

Can't speak for the latest patch, but it worked in the last one.
 
I mean I wouldn't want an AI with a weak army as a DP partner. That would just put me at risk for wars with no real benefit. Why would the AI want to help protect you if you're weak?

My only gripe is that they refuse to trade for them too often.

I feel like they should be willing to go out of their way for the right (very high) price a bit more often.
 
Since we are on subject are there any mod/tooltip/anything that can tell you how lond a DP last ? I can time better my DOW if I know when their gazillions of DP wear off.:ar15:

And yes, same impressions as you: AIs give DP when you do not need them. I was playing a domination game with Zulu and everyone and his dogs would give me a DP thank to my 114 units. I clarified the matter killing them all.
 
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You have to be on the upper limit of your supply cap (with barracks etc. built in your cities!) with a fairly modern/upgraded army and have a DoF or great relations with the AI, and then you'll quite likely be offered a DP. In my current game as Morocco I was offered a DP by my neighbour (6-city Arabia) in the medieval era when I had around 30 units (longswordsmen etc.) and when I had a DoF with them and when we both had a warmongering Shaka to the north of us. So it's quite possible.
 
Even if you do not need them, when AIs approach you for DPs they usually give you stuff for it. Maybe they should start making DP offers in your favour (i.e. they're stronger than you militarily), but with a cost?
 
This would be a great place for a reworking of the AI diplomacy.
When "should" an AI offer or desire a DP? I suspect there are MANY situations:
Let us rank all players in a game by total military strength. It will not be a straightforward count of military units but rather some modification based on tech level of those units.
1) The top rank player might want a DP in order to fend off an attack from # 2 or #3, while planning an attack on #4.
2) The #2 and #3 might want a DP to fend off #1
3) every player under 3 might want a DP in order to not be further bullied by the top 3.

Other considerations:
4) The reliability of each player also comes into play. Have they broken a promise in the last several hundred years?
5) The closeness each player is to cultural or scientific or diplomatic victories. No player should protect a leader for a victory, with a DP, unless somehow they, too, are a leader towards a victory and need to keep the hyenas off their flanks.

See how granular it gets, so quickly? Programming something that makes sense will be a challenge.
 
It does seem like neighboring friendly civs should want to make defensive pacts, and civs mutually threatened by a warmonger should definitely look to make a pact, even if they are not of equal strength.

Small civs banding together is the logical balance vs a runaway.
 
It does seem like neighboring friendly civs should want to make defensive pacts, and civs mutually threatened by a warmonger should definitely look to make a pact, even if they are not of equal strength.

Small civs banding together is the logical balance vs a runaway.
I've had a LOT of games where a joint war vs a warmonger is a loss, but letting him kill a nearby weak civ and building up my strength is a win.
 
Last few patches, the only AIs that offered me a DP were really weak and isolated and the few times I took the offers I ended up in 5 different wars a few turns later, even with friendly civs and those I had nice deals with, I just stopped accepting these offers. Of course no AI would accept any pact offer, even friends. Seems that the current system is very anti-human.
 
Yeah, it definitely feels like there's a anti-human bias with def pacts. By the time they're unlocked, usually every AI will get one pact, rarely any exceptions.
I can understand that when I'm playing peaceful and relying on garrisons and walls I'm not an interesting ally, but sometimes I'm warring hard and fielding the #2 army and I'm still not impressing anyone.

As much as one might not "need" those pacts, they kinda obsolete the Order wonder that gives you delegates for def. pacts.
 
As much as one might not "need" those pacts, they kinda obsolete the Order wonder that gives you delegates for def. pacts.

To be fair, that wonder is good for the yields on it's own, and Order isn't "supposed" to do a diplomatic victory. I think this is why Autocracy gets 2 delegates from capitals, Freedom gets 1 but friendships are easy to get when peaceful and they get a ton of delegates from T3. Order's wonder just has to fit the pattern in that regard. But yeah, DPs are wonky and I am angry more than anything because every DP I got offered was a "trap".
 
This would be a great place for a reworking of the AI diplomacy.
When "should" an AI offer or desire a DP? I suspect there are MANY situations:
Let us rank all players in a game by total military strength. It will not be a straightforward count of military units but rather some modification based on tech level of those units.
1) The top rank player might want a DP in order to fend off an attack from # 2 or #3, while planning an attack on #4.
2) The #2 and #3 might want a DP to fend off #1
3) every player under 3 might want a DP in order to not be further bullied by the top 3.

Other considerations:
4) The reliability of each player also comes into play. Have they broken a promise in the last several hundred years?
5) The closeness each player is to cultural or scientific or diplomatic victories. No player should protect a leader for a victory, with a DP, unless somehow they, too, are a leader towards a victory and need to keep the hyenas off their flanks.

See how granular it gets, so quickly? Programming something that makes sense will be a challenge.

I'm open to suggestions on how to improve this, but it is indeed a challenge to program it.

If you guys can come up with a good system, I can program the AI to follow it - but while I've made some improvements, I'm having difficulty figuring this one out. :)
 
I am betting that the way forward would be to understand that there are some valid strategies, and then " roll a die" for each AI, and pick one, at a few different points in the game..maybe every following era after DP is discovered. If the strategies given by the table plus the die roll are compatible, then the AIs will form DPs, or ask the player for a DP.
Super challenging though to come up with such a table of valid strategies. It is not anywhere near as simple as what i suggested, either. It will also depend on relative geographic location, and potentially even UA and policy choice. For instance, aztecs and assyrians have to play as sharks ..uh, i was going to say "swim or die" , but really it is about eating. Aztecs need to constantly be killing units, and assyrians need to capture cities. There are other civs in a similar position.
 
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