1. We have added a Gift Upgrades feature that allows you to gift an account upgrade to another member, just in time for the holiday season. You can see the gift option when going to the Account Upgrades screen, or on any user profile screen.
    Dismiss Notice

How to make groundbreaking sequels : one vision

Discussion in 'Civ - Ideas & Suggestions' started by Naokaukodem, Aug 16, 2015.

  1. Naokaukodem

    Naokaukodem Millenary King

    Joined:
    Aug 8, 2003
    Messages:
    3,304
    As I said, I see a third one : "rumors of the land" are displayed for each player at the start of the game (uncovers black areas), with possibly more for some civs with "memory of the ancients" or something like that, what could be pretty important considering how the game would be complex even right at start. ("memory of the ancients" could be a starting bonus ala Civ : Beyond Earth)

    You still may have to build your first scout (even though I dislike the idea that a detachment of people would only be "scouts", they would much more like be multi-tasking at those times, being affirmed warriors included), as your tribe may represent a product of past generations that chose "agriculture" to avoid the increasing concurrence and conflicts resulting from lack of space for nomads and nomadic ways of life, possibly with a mentality of self-sufficiency or introversion that made them lost track of their surroundings more or less.

    Those scouts could go in the wild to meet other tribes that would give them other "rumors of the land" automatically if they are friendly, and they may be if they are of the same clan than the player's tribe. There could be red crosses dispatched through the land at start (being regardless in the fog of war or in black lands), pointing out the last remembered locations of those tribes. They may have moved though, so there's no absolute guarantee. They may have forgotten you. (most of the time you need the name of a famous tribe member -either side- to prove you know them, or a manufactured sign, totem, etc...)

    Each time you meet successfully a tribe of the same clan, they give you "rumors", techs, units, pop points, etc... (the others are just neutral to aggressive)
     
  2. Boris Gudenuf

    Boris Gudenuf Deity

    Joined:
    Mar 11, 2012
    Messages:
    3,827
    Location:
    north of Steilacoom, WA
    I'd call it something like "Traveler's Tales" - major landmarks, Natural or Human, that are outside of the 'normal' Starting Radius but impressive enough that word of them gets to your starting Settler/Settlement. Could be coast lines, major rivers, mountain ranges - or exceptional Resources like Bison herds, Salt deposits. Also features that I'd like to see on the map, like waterfalls on the rivers marking the Head of Navigation beyond which you cannot sail a boat, or Volcanoes - yeah, I want them back: if for no other reason than that they are a source for early trade goods - Obsidian, which can take the place of metal for cutting edges, and volcanic ash that can be used to make waterproof cement - an edge for the Builders out there.
    The current 'goodie hut' feature of giving you a 'map of the surrounding territory' I would modify to being much more specific: some natives would tell you exactly where to find Resources nearby, or another Civ/City State/Settlement that could either be traded with or that was dangerous: "Watch out for them guys across the river..."
     
  3. Redaxe

    Redaxe Emperor

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2013
    Messages:
    1,519
    Well that's not strictly speaking true. The Saracen invasions from the mid 7th century over the Eastern mediterranean massacred and terrorized many of the roman populations from Syria to Anatolia and the Aegean sea that had survived from the Persian wars that the survivors were forced to abandon those settlements and flee to safer areas. This would either be to fortified areas or to Constantinople.

    Consequently most of those cities - which were fairly open and undefended were abandoned and forgotten since they flourished under pax romana which was finally ended by the muslims invasions as Constantinople proved unable to protect its provinces.

    There's actually a very good documentary about this exact subject detailing the rise and fall of a city called Sagalassos in the hinterlands of modern day turkey from its rise under the Greek aristocracy to it's transfer to Roman rule and into the Byzantine era.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vfm-6WgTOHo
    It's a fairly long documentary but if you watch around 6:30 it shows an aerial view of the site and a computer reconstruction of the agora and other buildings

    It's a classic example of what happened to those Eastern greek/roman colonies and is a spectacular site because it has essentially been undisturbed since it was abandoned. Ultimately what brought it down was a combination of earthquakes (which were particularly frequent and severe in the period from the 5th-7th centuries, the bubonic plague which wiped out an estimate 50% of the population. So much of the class of people that had the technical and engineering knowledge to build aqueducts and run the cities was killed and the economy suffered so consequently it simply proved too difficult to sustain a complex economy.
    Once the Saracens invaded the area that was it. If you lived in the Mediterranean there was no escaping the muslim pirates and raiders in the 7-8th centuries so trying to live in an open urban city was tantamount to suicide.
     
  4. Redaxe

    Redaxe Emperor

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2013
    Messages:
    1,519
    What I think could be done and might help with the balance as some have mentioned between tall and wide is to reintroduce different types of government alongside social policies.

    Being able to switch government depending on changing situations in your game would allow civs to be more flexible in managing their economy and military depending on changing circumstances. Being able to set tax rates would also be another option.
    Basically it would contribute to the tall vs wide but give more flexibility.

    Wide civs could potentially produce more science but would require more taxes and more oppressive governments to run effectively which could penalize science and allow taller civs to compete.
     
  5. Boris Gudenuf

    Boris Gudenuf Deity

    Joined:
    Mar 11, 2012
    Messages:
    3,827
    Location:
    north of Steilacoom, WA
    Thanx for that - my own archeology work was largely on Bronze Age sites (site reports on sites in Crete and southwestern Turkey) so I was not aware of the finding for the Roman/Byzantine period.

    It does bring up some interesting points. though:
    The cities within the Roman Empire were largely unwalled, because City Walls Have To Be Maintained, and this is expensive: they let them 'fall into lovely ruins' and paid the price. In Civ V, city walls are free and even without them, cities are hard to crack.

    Plague finished the depopulation of cities - both due to killing inhabitants, and to forcing them to flee when infrastructure and necessities became unworkable/unavailable. Plague doesn't occur in any form in Civ V, and cities keep right on growing as long there is food nearby, even if there is no infrastructure AT ALL in the city - no Market, Granary, Harbor, etc.

    Finally, in addition too Government Types with distinctly different characteristics, I'd point to another potential Limiting Factor to Wide Empires: Administrative Technology. If you do not have decent communications throughout the Empire, people trained to manage tax collection and law-giving, and a good reason for people to like being a part of the Empire (good 'government', safety, trade opportunities, stable currency/coinage), your Empire won't last long without revolts springing up everywhere. My immediate candidates for Technologies that would directly affect your ability to get useful Production, Gold and Population out of distant cities would be:

    Writing
    Bureaucracy
    Road Building
    Navigation
    Regular Post (Post Office)
    Telegraph/Telephone
    Railroad

    And 'Special Developments' that would help you Build Wide, but might be limited to National Wonders, UAs or such:
    .....Confuscian Academy - trains bureaucrats and administrators to a high level
    .....'Pony Express' - fast messenger service to tie government offices and administrators to the Capital - the Persian Empire had this in 400 BCE, so it is NOT a modern development! One variation, in fact, were trained runners that performed the same service for the Incas without riding animals in the mountains, so the concept is adaptable to many different regions from 'way back in history.
    .....Royal Road - this is the name given to the Persian 'special road' that tied the capital(s) in Persia with the edges of the Empire, and could be applied to the Roman Roads as well. Problem with these is that they do require constant, expensive maintenance. The Great/Grand Canal system in China served some of the same purpose, so this is another 'concept' that is adaptable to circumstance.
     
  6. Redaxe

    Redaxe Emperor

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2013
    Messages:
    1,519
    Oh wow so your actually an archaeologist.

    You should definitely watch that video if you have the time. I've never seen a documentary that goes into so much detail to explain the cultural & economic change of a graeco-roman city over time. They are also restoring certain monuments of that site to their original condition which I think is amazing. It would be great if the entire site was restored.

    That city in the doc - Sagalassos actually did build walls sometime around the 5th century I think.
    Wiki says around the year 400 probably due to the Isaurian raids. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sagalassos

    One earthquake struck it in 518 but the city was still wealthy enough to recover but then you have the plague in 540s then the arab raids and another massive earthquake in the mid 7th century. So it was a sad combination of events.

    On the subject of citywalls yes you're correct they have to be maintained which Civ has ignored although many cities started building them when the barbarian invasions become more threatening. Many walls were destroyed or badly damaged by the many severe earthquakes of the late-antiquity period.

    The Theodossian Walls of Constantinople for instance were almost levelled by one quake that prompted Attila the Hun to ride to the capital. The Byzantines only just repaired their walls in time and they only had a few weeks so it was a colossal undertaking.

    Antioch suffered a sad fate. It got hit by 2 subsequent earthquakes in 526-528 which destroyed the walls and silted up what was left of the harbor - Seleucia Pieria which could no longer be dredged. The Roman army happened to be campaigning in Italy so the city was relatively undefended and the walls weren't repaired so Khosrow took advantage of the situation and thoroughly sacked the city.

    It was rebuilt by Justinian but on a much smaller scale and the loss of it's harbor meant it's strategic and economic value was gone.

    And yes the plague was the next nail in the coffin and hit the trading cities on the Mediterranean the worst. So if you want to imagine what it would be like to play a game of Civ where random events could destroy your civ and leave what was left to be swallowed up by your neighbors look no further than what happened to the Graeco/Roman cities on the Eastern Mediterranean.
     
  7. Boris Gudenuf

    Boris Gudenuf Deity

    Joined:
    Mar 11, 2012
    Messages:
    3,827
    Location:
    north of Steilacoom, WA
    No, sorry - my sister has her PhD in archeology, but my main interest was always history: I took the archeology courses to supplement my undergraduate studies on Alexander the Great, and got conned into writing site report summaries for the university's department for extra credit.


    These are arguments for several changes to the city defense in Civ V.5 or Civ VI: require maintenance for city walls, but allow Gold or a Great Engineer to 'rush build' walls. Reduce the current integral city defense so that without walls and/or defending units, anything larger than a scout has at least a chance of taking the city. This would return City Defense to the real importance it had, instead of making an empty city still one of the toughest 'units' in your army.

    Much as I enjoy history, losing a city to a Random Event makes for a Very Unpleasant Game. On the other hand, having cities that are more vulnerable than they are now would, I think, make a more interesting game.
     
  8. HorseshoeHermit

    HorseshoeHermit 20% accurate as usual, Morty

    Joined:
    Apr 5, 2013
    Messages:
    1,310
    Location:
    Canada
    You know, I actually hold a number of ideas at multiple levels of the design process for my own 4X, which should be interestingly different and exciting and doable, but ... well, I harbor feelings like it could be a get-rich-quick scheme, and I do like being rich.

    Now, I don't think get-rich-quick schemes are possible, yet by that token, I don't like the idea of just giving the idea away freely (since someone else might try to get-rich-quick with it, and fail).

    The ideas to my scribbles are sort of answers in a huge package to a lot of this entire thread. As I predicted some weeks ago, Naukokoderm is a catalyst of insight for me. (And I still can't remember his name.)

    edit:
    lel.
     
  9. MarauderCH

    MarauderCH Warlord

    Joined:
    Mar 5, 2012
    Messages:
    282
    The problem I think about when I hear people talking about a new Civ 6 is what can they actually do to make it a new game that is different and worth buying? It took Civ 5 two expansions to make it into the game that it should have been at release time.

    I feel that the game is fairly rigid and doesn't allow for much variety in game play. I play basically the same game depending on the victory condition I am playing for each game. Which Civ I play adds a little variety to the game but not much. It's the same game style over and over. I'd like to be able to create a new human development each game, not do the same thing constantly with a slight tweak to the formula. There are strategies I would like to try that would probably be fun and challenging, but I'd get steamrolled by a runaway civ bent on ruining my game.

    The key to a Civ 6 though is going to be a significantly improved AI. All the starting benefits the AI gets is because it needs it since it is clueless. The diplomatic part of this game blows because there really is no diplomacy. It's rigged to get the AI to hate you over the course of the game. Game long friends suddenly hate you. Yes, there is a reason but there is no way to improve relations once they reach that point. An improved AI will be key. I realize they probably want you to play other people more then the computer, but not everyone can do that often. My wacky availability doesn't work to regularly play other people.
     
  10. Boris Gudenuf

    Boris Gudenuf Deity

    Joined:
    Mar 11, 2012
    Messages:
    3,827
    Location:
    north of Steilacoom, WA
    And that is an example of clueless play testing and intellectual laziness in the original game concept. They had go have started with the idea of simplifying everything they could out of Civ IV in order to make the game 3D on the average PC. The result was and to an extent is a game sadly lacking in multiple areas.

    What Civ 6 needs above all is a Dynamic Game. Constant new events and developments that keep you making meaningful decisions Every Single Turn. A tech tree that is not rigid, but gives you several different 'tech paths' to victory, based on changing start and game conditions. Civilizations that are not locked in to UAs, UUs or UBs Regardless of the Civ's status in the game, but that arise as a result of game conditions and Your Decisions.
    Example: England would not get, from the start, a UA related to seapower. UNLESS England starts with a seacoast start, which gives them a bonus to research Seafaring or Boat Building or whatever the first seapower Tech is called, and they establish a sea trade route early. England's 'unique' would only be unique to an England that is similar to the historical England. An 'England' that starts inland in the mountains is going to look a lot more like Incans with funny accents - and that's as it should be.

    We also need a host of other changes: resources that don't all appear at the same time, that get 'used up' but can be replaced by other resources or artificial manufactures, a trade system that makes sense and includes trade with Everybody: other Civs, City States, AND 'Barbarians' who need to have a lot more options for their behavior than they have now. Oh, and a set of military units that act historically, appear at historical frequency compared to each other, and have Upgrades and Promotions that make some modicum of sense.

    Agree Agree Agree. The best game in the world is worthless if there is no one to play against: without an opponent it becomes a Puzzle, not a Game. Right now, Civ V is both puzzling (How could they make all those mistakes?!) and a Puzzle, and a mediocre game with a truly brain dead set of opponents. I don't expect a Human-like AI - not on any CPU that I could afford, anyway! But I would like to have an AI who had a Strategy that made some sense given his/its game situation, and a basic grasp of how to move its units. If that's too much to ask, lemme know now and I'll go back to playing Solitaire' - I'll get the same mindless repetition of moves I've got already in Civ V, and the games are shorter...
     
  11. Naokaukodem

    Naokaukodem Millenary King

    Joined:
    Aug 8, 2003
    Messages:
    3,304
    What about "generic mineral" for iron, stone, copper, silver etc... dispatched on the map, that you have to inspect in order to discover their nature ?

    [Idea out of the blue : as with scouts, you may have to attach a specialist into the expert group it would be (for scouts it would be a "ranger", for scouts able to find other tribes of the same clan it would be a "ranger" + an "ancient"), able to recognize all sorts of minerals ("prospector").]
     
  12. Boris Gudenuf

    Boris Gudenuf Deity

    Joined:
    Mar 11, 2012
    Messages:
    3,827
    Location:
    north of Steilacoom, WA
    Another idea: 'regular' versus 'industrial' quantities of Resources. Early in the game, it doesn't take a lot of a resource to make a difference: 100 lbs of iron will fully equip an armored Roman legionnaire or a Knight, 100 lbs of Gold will make anyone rich, 100 lbs of silver will supply enough spendable coinage to keep a market going for quite a while.

    But
    Reach the 'Industrial Era' and the requirements go up dramatically: one Ship of the Line carries between 1000 and 1500 TONS of iron cannon and fixtures, one mile of railroad track with only medium-weight rail takes about 80 Tons of steel, not counting the additional metal for wheels on the cars, locomotives, etc.
    So
    Initial examination by a Scout or (with say, a 50% chance of missing it) by a roaming military unit may find the resource, but only an examination of the terrain by, say, a 'Prospector' or Great Engineer will discover the real quantity available - and if it is not Industrial Quantity, tapping it when the industrial requirements come into play (build your first Forge, Factory, Cannon, Ship of the Line? discover Navigation, Steam Power?) the resource is 'used up' (disappears) within a turn or so.

    And, of course, some resources will disappear faster than others: the majority of Silver or Gold deposits worked in ancient/classical/renaissance times 'played out' because there was virtually no limit to the Economic Requirements for precious metal coinage, and so new Gold and Silver 'Rushes' took place throughout history and in some cases had a huge local effect on movement of population to nearby cities (California's San Francisco, Nevada's Truckee and Virginia City)
    Finally
    Of course, some 'deposits' of minerals can be Reworked with later technologies. Techs that allow you to break up more rock (Gunpowder, Dynamite) or dig deeper (Steam-powered Pumps, Hydraulics, Electricity) may allow you to 'reopen' a deposit of mineral resources, or discover that what appeared to be regular is actually an Industrial Quantity with the application of new technological techniques.

    And note that the same can be applied to Non-Mineral resources, most of which are plants or animals: with the proper climate/terrain, you should be able to 'plant' new resources of Incense, Bananas, Wheat, Wine, Cotton, Silk, etc. or build new Pastures for Sheep, Horses, Cattle, et al. These might require certain technologies (Selective Breeding, Plant Genetics, Irrigation?) because some 'resources' spread almost Everywhere very quickly (sheep, cattle, horses) while others took until relatively late (Cotton, Silk) to get established outside the original starting locations.

    All of this applies to my themes: More Dynamic Game, No Static Resources. You will never be able to completely 'retire' your Scouts, because you will always be engaged in hunting up new resources or finding alternatives through technology or trade.
     
  13. Naokaukodem

    Naokaukodem Millenary King

    Joined:
    Aug 8, 2003
    Messages:
    3,304
    Well, the problem with industrial resources like iron is that they are so abundant that it's like setting "air" as a resource. Now the main problem I see with strategic resources (horses and iron) is that they don't disappear from the interface when they are obsolete. (for everybody : when they are obsolete for you you may still trade them)
     
  14. Boris Gudenuf

    Boris Gudenuf Deity

    Joined:
    Mar 11, 2012
    Messages:
    3,827
    Location:
    north of Steilacoom, WA
    Except that no one ever created a huge industrial complex to produce air in useable forms. (Well, Liquid Oxygen plants might qualify). And the great steel mills and one pit iron and coal mines are still some of the physically largest industrial enterprises ever built by man. That 'iron' and 'coal' seem ubiquitous now is mainly because so much effort has gone into producing mass quantities of them, and they are traded world-wide. Also, the emphasis on 'iron & steel' has shifted since the Industrial Age, in that a huge percentage of the modern industry is either specialized alloys or reprocessed scrap.

    I can see simplifying the map by removing obsolete 'strategic' resources, except that I think some resources should change their category: horses are no longer used to build military units, but thoroughbred horse racing is a major 'sport' or happiness producer, so the resource, with the 'Technology' and building, say, specialized Stadiums, would still qualify as a Bonus Resource. LIkewise, while Copper and Gold start out as Bonus Resources, in the modern and Information Eras, copper is a requirement for Electrification of a society, wiring cities for lights, telephone and telegraph, and mass transit, and gold is the main material used for solid-state circuit conductors, and that technology is a prerequisite for most modern weapons from rocket artillery to aircraft to helicopters to missiles, while also a requirement for one of the most lucrative Bonus (Manufactured) Resources in the current era: Consumer Electronics.
     
  15. daft

    daft The fargone

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2013
    Messages:
    1,398
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    New World
    Regarding two previous posts in this thread praising Nauko........?, well, whatever. I absolutely do not see any relevant inventions to the game that this thread's creator has come up here.
    So please, Horseshoe Hermi, and the other guy, Dunkl....., sorry, praise the guy who has come up with some good ideas in the thread, his pseudo is Boris Gudenuf.
     
  16. Boris Gudenuf

    Boris Gudenuf Deity

    Joined:
    Mar 11, 2012
    Messages:
    3,827
    Location:
    north of Steilacoom, WA
    BUT if any of my ideas are any good, they get better by discussion and interaction with other people. No one person will ever come up with a 'perfect gaming experience' but the more ideas are thrown out, kicked around, refined, defined or revised, the better the final product will be.

    For immediate example, I like Naokaukodem's idea of the 'prospector' to help find resources. It bridges the current gap between Military Unit/Scout and Great Person, and potentially provides a model of other non-religious non-military units like the current Missionary.
     
  17. HorseshoeHermit

    HorseshoeHermit 20% accurate as usual, Morty

    Joined:
    Apr 5, 2013
    Messages:
    1,310
    Location:
    Canada
  18. Naokaukodem

    Naokaukodem Millenary King

    Joined:
    Aug 8, 2003
    Messages:
    3,304
    Well Boris Gudenuf certainly vastly contributed to the success of this topic. But I happened myself to give some good ideas in other topics (less successful if not totally unsuccessful) and a lot of other (random and less good) ideas in others.

    I stayed vague in the OP, and concentrated on theory. (every word is important) This seems the best way in order to have a discussion, because everything is opened and calls for everybody imagination if the OP is inspiring enough. But, I failed to transmit some important ideas by detailing them in some OP. I probably didn't have a precise enough idea of them, thus failed to describe them in a seductive way.

    One idea I have a precise idea of and however apparently failed to transmit is the 'civ crucible' : you have a lot of civs at start, and no one is guaranteed to survive because everything moves constantly, by culture mainly ('far' away cities and conquered cities are highly susceptible to defect culturally). There would be means to delay an implosion, and important ones like roads, but ideally big empires would fall soon or later. That would make for a more dynamic game but one would have to adapt the victory conditions, because theoretically you would be limited by a small empire or even doomed in the long run. You also may have to create another way to play, a transitive one, the one when you have 0 cities. (it could even transform into the main screen)

    That's practically the main idea i wish i can deliver nowadays, with the one on factions choice maybe, which is totally different, and could imply Social Policies.

    Well, I said "like", not "equals to". You have to know the basis of the analogy.

    Yesterday I watched a documentary about sand as a resource. It's nearly the same as iron, except that sand sources may have totally disappear in the next decades among with a quantity of islands (and a lot have already disappeared), and beaches around the whole globe, along with their affiliated economy. The thing is that one can't use deserts sand, because its grains are too much eroded by the wind and thus too round, unfit to constructions or territory expansions. Only the beach/ocean sand is valid. The worldwide market of sand is of about 80 billions dollars per year ! There is many transfers... could be interesting for Civ.

    About copper, it's odd that it's a luxury resource at start. Granted, it has been used for jewelry, but also for weapons. It has been of two significant uses early. why not allow such a duplicity ingame ?
     
  19. Boris Gudenuf

    Boris Gudenuf Deity

    Joined:
    Mar 11, 2012
    Messages:
    3,827
    Location:
    north of Steilacoom, WA
    But, I would argue, that opened discussion by allowing for the interaction among the posts to 'finalize' or expand the definitions. Overall, I think you started a great thread.

    Right now, the Civ victory conditions are all Absolutes. You have to come in First at something, everyone else has to lose. I would like to see an option for a 'self-defined' Victory Condition, or a 'non-zero sum' victory, in which your victory does NOT imply that anyone else 'lost'. For instance, I've played a game (as America) in which my sole personal 'victory condition' was to build a railroad from one shore of a Pangaea continent to the other. Official? No, but satisfying to me (I'd just finished reading Ambrose's book on the building of the transcontinental railroad!). Another, more easily defined victory might be to maintain your population's Average Total Happiness (Avg Happy value x turns) above all others. A laudable goal in a ruler, and one that does not require you to build 'Tall' or 'Wide' or in fact, necessarily conflict with anyone else in the game. In a game spanning 6000 years, it always has seemed peculiar that the victory conditions do not allow and reward more different styles of game.

    Ah, but then where do you stop? I live a few miles from an old gravel quarry, of which there are several in the Puget Sound area. Gravel? It's just crushed rock, right? Well, it has to be the right type of rock, and crushed uniformly, and in fact it is not easily come by and is a vital component for concrete and roadbeds and all kinds of modern engineering necessities. And in parts of the world, potable water is in desperately short supply. The Roman world's access to volcanic ash from areas of the Mediterranean like Vesuvius, Etna and Santorini gave them access to cement, a waterproof building material they used to great effect in their (for the time) innovative engineering. Molybdenum, Nickel and Chromium are necessary component alloy materials to turn steel into armor plate: do we require at least one of them to build any modern tanks or battleships?
    Unfortunately, you have to make a decision to limit yourself, or you end up playing something that more resembles the Strategic Bombing Survey of WWII (which identified, I believe, about 55 'strategic' materials to be attacked to cripple Germany's industry) than a playable game.

    Excellent point: the game has and does artificially designate resources as Strategic, Luxury or Bonus, when in fact they may be several at once or change from one usage to another in the course of the game. Copper is a good point: a vital component to Bronze, the first 'strategic' metal in history and the game, but also a component of jewelry (but not the most important, and certainly not a necessity), and much later, a necessary requirement to get any use out of the discovery of electricity and the applications (electric-motored mass transit, telegraph, telephone, radio, lighting, television and all the Mass Culture that follow) that follow from it.
    I could argue that Cattle are a Strategic Resource, in that they provided leather for light armor and sinews and bone and horn for Composite Bows! We've already covered the variable uses of horses, but you could do the same for almost every Resource currently in the game.
    I would love to see the game both simplified and made more dynamic by simply having Resources whose application and use changes as your technology (and possibly Social Policy or Religious Practices) change. Cattle provide Bonuses for Food, Production (leather belting for drive trains was a major requirement in the late Industrial period: one steam engine driving power through the belts to dozens of machine tools!), and military units (Horse Archers, Composite Bows) BUT Bison and Deer can also provide the same bonuses (Bison leather was actually preferred for the big industrial drive belts). Copper, as mentioned, is all at once Luxury, Production Bonus, Military, and later Technological Requirement - but can be substituted by numerous other Resources as a Luxury good, and even as a Military - Obsidian (from Volcanoes) can provide equally sharp, though short, blades and cutting edges, and quilted leather or canvas/cloth armor is almost as effective protection as bronze (contrary to popular belief, the Greek Hoplite rarely wore metal body armor by the Classical Period, but relied on his big wooden shield and cloth or canvas cuirass - Alexander's phalanx didn't start wearing metal body armor until after his Indian Campaign!).
    Let's open up the Resources - it will also open up trade as you will have to dicker with others to find or substitute resources for all kinds of reasons...
     
  20. daft

    daft The fargone

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2013
    Messages:
    1,398
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    New World
    Yes, but cattle you can regrow, replenish, therefore theoritically reintroduced in any square/tile you wish once first acquired, same as horses. Fishing and whaling though does tend to more sporadic, likely to disappear due to overexpolitation.

    I agree with Obsidian and Amber.
    As far as wearing metal compared to leather armor, it's like presenting (some) of the dinosaurs with factual feathers or without, one way is cool, the other, although more realistic, not so much.
     

Share This Page