How to manage scientists and other specialists?

[Shurdus]

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=197818

Edit: Posted the link to the JackOfClubs beginners guide to SE, for purposes of convenience and to help those also interested in this topic.

Hi all!

In most of my cities I prefer to work the tiles around a city over adding scientists or other specialists. Now I remember reading somewhere in a thread or maybe a strategy guide about the advantages of using scientists, and that they could even be so powerful that it is possible to almost reduce the science slider to zero.

I cannot, however, find that article (or thread ) anywhere. I find that I am questioning the value of ANY specialist in my cities. I am sure they can be very valuable and that I am just missing something, probably something so obvious that only I cannot see.

I was wondering if any one could explain to me the value of specialists - mostly scientists I am interested in - or could show me a good guide that explains how to use specialists in cities.

Needless to say, any one who cal help me gets some major karma boost.

 

[Supr49er]

Welcome Shurdus.

After you build libraries, add two scientist specialists in every city. They give you +6 and +3 so you can get Great Scientists faster. You can indeed use these scecialists to run your research at a good level and keep your science slider off, or low.

 

[Diamondeye]

Well for an economy run be specialist (SE - "Specialist Economy", opposed to CE, Cottage Economy), some few basic rules are:
1) The representation civic available with the Pyramids is almost crucial as they add 3 to any specialist. This makes a specialist produce 6 before modifiers, for comparison, early game, a riverside town prduces 5, 6 if financial.
Another aspect to remember is the Caste System civic, available with Code of Laws, as it provides unlimited access to merchants, artists and scientists. Also, it is a good idea to be a philosophical leader as your will be increased by 100%, allowing a rapid spawn of great people.

A good start is to grab a couple of food techs, maybe bronze working, then go for writing and eventually Code of Laws (can be taken with Oracle slingshot, eventually founding a religion).

If you do not found Confucianism from CoL, you can use a great scientist to lightbulb Philosophy, which founds Taoism, enables the Pacifism civic (+100% in cities with state rel), and is a prereq to liberalism.

Obviously, it is a good idea to have lots of food and a couple of mines, so that if a crucial building is needed, you can switch from specialist to fast.

I believe JackOfClubs has written a beginners guide on the subject in the war academy. Look there.

 

[Shurdus]

Thanks, both of you. May the bonus karma be enough to pevent you from reïncarnating.



That being said, should others have other insights I am very glad to hear them. What I am most interested in is the advantage you get over the advantage you get when working the extra tile.

I do not play this game often enough to really know what to get and when, and what wonders I should rush and when and such, so details are very welcome!

 

[Diamondeye]

Thanks, both of you. May the bonus karma be enough to pevent you from reïncarnating.



That being said, should others have other insights I am very glad to hear them. What I am most interested in is the advantage you get over the advantage you get when working the extra tile.

I do not play this game often enough to really know what to get and when, and what wonders I should rush and when and such, so details are very welcome!

Imagine a city that has:
10 grassland (riverside), one with corn
3 flood plains
5 grass hills, one with pigs
2 plains.

Now, at size 6, a commerce economy would work, to get as much as possible,

3 floodplains (cottaged), 3 grasslands (cottaged), for a surplus of 5 food, 30 commerce. Up to four workers might be converted to work the hills, either cottaged or mined, resulting in either 4 hammers and 26 commerce, or 12 hammers and 10 commerce.

This is if all cottages are top tier, but you are not financial.

On the other hand, as specialists, you'd work:
grass corn +3F (worker eats 2 of the 5, equalling 3 surplus) and 1C (riverside), pighill +3F+1H, and the village square, for a surplus of 8 food, allowing four scientist.

That's 4*3 + 1 = 13 commerce, 25 if representation, plus 12 towards scientist without modifiers.

Now, a good thing about the SE is that if someone pillages, the city can easily be reimproved, while growing a town takes 70 turns after worker is done, farm is instant.

 

[HerrDoktor]

But let me ask you, SE is really on par with cottages on research if you use, let's say, a 70% or 80% slider?

 

[Bigfoot3814]

It seems that you completley neglect great people!
In addition,there are also certian wonders that add greater benefits to specialists. If you're going for culture, the sistine chapel will put +2 to all specialists, even the non-artist ones.

 

[Rvil Plum]

Cities on or close to your border that will be raided and/ or invaded are best switched to a SE, because farmland can be rebuilt very quickly.

Your core inner cities can safely build cottages, as it will take a full blown invasion to place them at risk. That said, enemy spies will have a go at towns / villages, as will enemy air units, but generally speaking they only do minor damage.

Specialising 2 citizens as Scientists once a city is size 4 - 6 will produce a Great Scientist very quickly, and I always do it, but it will also override the Great Person benefits of many wonders. For example, a city with the Pyramids will pop out Great Engineers if you leave it alone, but if you specialise 2 of it's citizens as scientists, then you are almost guaranteed a Great Scientist, rather than the Great Engineer that you actually want, so if there is a wonder in your city, think carefully before you specialise any of it's citizens.

The SE really goes into overdrive and snowballs when you combine it with building certain key wonders, as the two things feed off each other, (i.e the Pyramids pops you a Great Engineer, which you use to fast build the Great Library, which gives you two scientists who then pop a Great Scientist which you settle to give you even more science, and so on). The tech lead in certain technology trees also gives you the special benefit associated with being the first to discover a key technology, (free Great Person, or a free technology). The tech lead this all gives you if you follow one tree will also give you a big head start on building / chopping / buying whatever wonder is associated with that technology, and the advanced tech you have discovered in the tree you have followed, can be traded with the AI for tech that they have researched, but you didn't bother with in your race down whatever tech tree you followed.

On face value a SE would appear to be a huge benefit, but you need military units to protect it all and they cost money. Your cities need to grow and have buildings in them, and that costs maintenance. In other words, don't go nuts and overdo the SE thing. The SE benefit also slows down a bit when you hit the middle ages, as it takes longer to pop Great People.

Last but not least, aggressive AI are always looking for easy military targets, and it's very easy to be weak if you overdo the SE route with loads of wonder building or city improvements from your cutting edge tech. The largest danger from the SE route is a weak military and/or a small sized civ, because you have been busy building or researching other things. The trick with a SE is not what you research and build, but what you don't research and build. You just can't build all the wonders that your tech lead gives you, so cherry pick. Likewise, you can't stuff your cities with every shiny new building that you have researched, because if you do, then someone will come knocking at your front door with a huge stack of military, and take it all away from you.

Regards - Mr P

 

[DigitalBoy]

I also like to use specialists to take advantage of beaker/gold multipliers that might otherwise be wasted. For example, running merchants in a city with wall street. If you have a high science slider, then very little of the commerce will be affected by wall street, but merchants will get the bonus regardless of where you have the slider at. Conversely, with a low science slider, scientists get more out of academies than cottages.

 

[HerrDoktor]

Won a cultural victory on Noble with Alexander, 1997. Nothing stellar, but it was a good game, as I was by far the most advanced and also the most powerful, even going for a cultural victory - which was also being tried by Mansa Musa. I managed to vassalize Genghis Khan two turns before my last city turned legendary. That damn thing is powerful!...

 

[TBT]

I find specialists very helpful when I wan't to have a Great Person to found a corporation. I just have many of a specific kind in every city to achieve that. Usually computer always chooses prophets and I don't need them after renaisance era so I switch automation off.

 

[Iranon]

Generally, the steady output of a cottage-driven economy is greater, especailly as bonuses from printing press and civics come available. However, a specialist economy...

- gets earlier access to great people, which can be settled to catch up or used in another way to reap immediate benefits
- will produce more food, so it can more easily sacrifice research for production either via working mines/workshops or slavery.
- will reach a critical mass where the slider is hardly relevant. With theatres and similar buildings, this can make happiness a non-factor (helpful for warfare)
- is less prone to pillaging

 

[Diamondeye]

You appearantly don't understand my argument, as I think SE is on par with CE on the difficulty I play (Prince), but it can only be done with tiles with much food, say, 2 good food ressources per city, plus some farmable land and a high happy cap/health cap. I actually quite like running a SE, it's just not as useable on foodpoor maps as a CE. Also on SE, you can have the slider run at 0% and then have one or two cottage cities run your gold, while all else go at scientists. Witth caste system you can do it the other way, with one or two merchant cities to keep slider at 100%. I have an awesome screenshot example from the Gandhi LHC map at home, where I manage to, counting free specialist from Merc, could feed 11 mechants, limited only due to happy cap. I was able to run rest of my cities as science cities, either specialistfueled or cottagefueled.

A good rule to determine what a city is best for:
if a city has many average-good food tiles, it's good for cottages.
If a city has some high-veryhigh food tiles and some other lousy tiles, it is good for specialists. The more + a tile produces, the better;
grassland with farm, floodplain w/o farm, some plantations/pastures(plains), lake with lighthouse: +1
Floodplain with farm (pre biology),grass with farm (post biology), clams/crabs without lighthouse, some plantation/farm ressources, some pastures (plains/grass, also hills of both kinds): +2
Fish without lighthouse, Floodplain with farm (post biology), clams/crabs with lighthouse, some farm/pasture ressource, bananas: +3
Fish with lighthouse, some farm ressources with farm (post biology/irrigated), pigs on flat grass: +4
Some farm ressources (post biology AND irrigated): +5

as far as I remember, anyway

 

[Munch]

I've tried a few times to run a specialist-heavy empire and have never really perfected it. I either find that there just isn't enough surplus food, or I start to turtle up a bit and end up significantly behind in land.

I often try and make my capital a great person hotspot - becase it tends to be the only one capable of building world wonders early on - but this doesn't always work out well. For example this way I lose out on the large benefit of running Beauracracy in a cottage-heavy capital, and I am reluctant to chop forests if I am saving up for the National Park or to build happiness buildings if I am saving up for Globe Theatre. I will keep trying though!

One thing which puts me off specialists however is wasted great person points. By running specialists all over the place almost every city is charging up a great person but more often than not they never get to release them because another city simply outputs far more GPP. So I find it easier to have one or two cities which are specialist heavy and have the National Epic, National Park, Globe Theatre, and to cottage up the rest of my cities (except the military one(s)).

 

[Shurdus]

Thanks for the input all! I was hoping for this kind of discussion and analyses of the situation. Now I know I should not aim to do it all the time in every city. I also encountered the problem where I left myself weak, making myself an easy target for aggresive AI civs.

I guess I will have to keep trying and see what I can and cannot do. Keep the discussion going guys, I think it is going very well.

Right now, I am very curious what techs to go for at first, and why these techs are more special in relation to a SE.

I kept the question vague on purpose, to get as many opinions as I can. Cheers!

 

[DigitalBoy]

You appearantly don't understand my argument, as I think SE is on par with CE on the difficulty I play (Prince), but it can only be done with tiles with much food, say, 2 good food ressources per city

You don't necessarily have to run a empire-wide SE. If I get a capital with a ton of food, I like to turn it into a scientist city while running cottages elsewhere. The capital is a great people farm in one sense, but it also carries a lot of economic weight, especially early on when you don't have as many cities and the cottages you are working aren't yet mature. In that sense, it's also something of a SE, at least on a local scale. A scientist in a city with a library and an academy is a hefty 5.25 beakers/turn, and that's without Representation. You can also settle any great scientists you get for an additional 10.5 beakers/turn.

 

[TheWilltoAct]

very interesting discussion to me as I am currently experimenting with the SE myself

A few points that stand out to me as especially important/interesting:

It seems that you completley neglect great people!
In addition,there are also certian wonders that add greater benefits to specialists. If you're going for culture, the sistine chapel will put +2 to all specialists, even the non-artist ones.

Indeed, Great people are extreeeeemely powerful, particularily in the early game where they can serve as your economic engine, and most are also quite versatile generally allowing you either some potent immediate benefit or a more city specific longterm benefit (great for specialization).

I am running an SE without the Philosophical trait atm and I think that has really curbed some of the potential benefits :/

Also wonders like Angkor Wat and Sistine chapel as you mentioned can help boost specialist gain... and I suppose the Parthenon helps in this respect too - not sure of any others?

Generally, the steady output of a cottage-driven economy is greater, especailly as bonuses from printing press and civics come available. However, a specialist economy...

- gets earlier access to great people, which can be settled to catch up or used in another way to reap immediate benefits
- will produce more food, so it can more easily sacrifice research for production either via working mines/workshops or slavery.
- will reach a critical mass where the slider is hardly relevant. With theatres and similar buildings, this can make happiness a non-factor (helpful for warfare)
- is less prone to pillaging

Absolutely true. Imo it cannot be stressed enough that the early great people give you a crucial advantage over a cottage loving opponent.

The production part is especially true if you are running slavery - your city can really focus in on scientists for research but if you are being attacked or need a new building you have researched you can quick burn some people o.O
Unfortunately you need to switch out of Caste System when you do this so the Spiritual trait is advisable.

Independence from the science slider is quite enjoyable, particularily here in BTS where Espionage is of considerable importance. In my current game I'm managing with just 20% culture so I'm able to dedicate someewhere around 40% to Espionage and this is without my Wall Street getting built yet.

... I actually quite like running a SE, it's just not as useable on foodpoor maps as a CE. Also on SE, you can have the slider run at 0% and then have one or two cottage cities run your gold, while all else go at scientists. Witth caste system you can do it the other way, with one or two merchant cities to keep slider at 100%. I have an awesome screenshot example from the Gandhi LHC map at home, where I manage to, counting free specialist from Merc, could feed 11 mechants, limited only due to happy cap. I was able to run rest of my cities as science cities, either specialistfueled or cottagefueled.

A good rule to determine what a city is best for:
if a city has many average-good food tiles, it's good for cottages.
If a city has some high-veryhigh food tiles and some other lousy tiles, it is good for specialists...

Hmm... I actually never thought of running some purely cottaged cities with an SE for gold ... that's rather a good idea

... in my game I have had the luxury of running mostly pure science and pure production city types... but I am in a food rich area. I have a couple peculiar cities (i.e plains cities, non-irrigated) that I have had to cottage so that can be important to keep in mind. Generally though (depending on map type) my take is that you will usually find that food is a fairly common resource, at least relative to others.

 

[TheWilltoAct]

I forgot another crucial point I wanted to emphasize!!!

What specialists give you is a straight up benefit - be it pure or pure in most cases. This has a significant advantage over the more vague economy as it fosters specialization which in turn translates into absolute efficiency.

What do I mean by that? Well in theory you will only have to build specific buildings that directly complement your specialists output - such as libraries, observatories, and universities in cities and markets, grocers, and banks in producing cities. Of course, this logic breaks down pretty quickly once you realize that you will probably need additional buildings to keep the people and so you may need markets and grocers in all your sizable cities.

I just throw that out there as something to consider... it's admittedly and obviously very vague yet in my mind as I feel my way around this economy type.

 

[DigitalBoy]

I forgot another crucial point I wanted to emphasize!!!

What specialists give you is a straight up benefit - be it pure or pure in most cases. This has a significant advantage over the more vague economy as it fosters specialization which in turn translates into absolute efficiency.

What do I mean by that? Well in theory you will only have to build specific buildings that directly complement your specialists output - such as libraries, observatories, and universities in cities and markets, grocers, and banks in producing cities. Of course, this logic breaks down pretty quickly once you realize that you will probably need additional buildings to keep the people and so you may need markets and grocers in all your sizable cities.

I just throw that out there as something to consider... it's admittedly and obviously very vague yet in my mind as I feel my way around this economy type.

Yeah, it's great in theory, but eventually you end up having to build markets and grocers just to cope with caps. I suppose that's good for merchants though.

 

[TheWilltoAct]

Sorry I have no intention of spamming your thread - I just happen to have a lot of thoughts on the subject

A return to an earlier point:

...I actually quite like running a SE, it's just not as useable on foodpoor maps as a CE. Also on SE, you can have the slider run at 0% and then have one or two cottage cities run your gold, while all else go at scientists. Witth caste system you can do it the other way, with one or two merchant cities to keep slider at 100%...

I am still plugging away on my SE game and it occured to me that it's important to realize that "having the slider run at 0%" is a rather ambiguous comment. My science slider is set to zero atm but my culture slider is at 20% and my espionage is at 30%. So if I try to cottage up a bit for some extra gold it's important to bear in mind that in my case only 50% of the cottage income will go towards gold. That might be fine too as I place considerable value on happiness and vital espionage, but it's something to keep in mind.