How to maximize Science?

Discussion in 'Civ6 - Strategy & Tips' started by RoboEmperor, Jun 2, 2019.

  1. RoboEmperor

    RoboEmperor Warlord

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    So culture first is only for pericles? I thought someone said you go culture first even as korea.
     
  2. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

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    Not necessarily first, which is my issue in this game. I am at T140 and should really have done a moon landing but promoted the wrong governor. Still death robots def before 180.
    I’ll post a save when I get back given the chance... playing while in a nasty overnight escalation md I think I might be asked to do something soon.
     
  3. RoboEmperor

    RoboEmperor Warlord

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    How did you get 542 science by T112? Did you conquer a ton of deity cities? I can barely hit 100 by t112...
     
  4. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

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    It is called Gilga Power! ... and was only on immortal. I was on about 190 at T100, pushed it too much, my bad. (Who needs Korea)
    So built a GDR on T159
    It was a disaster ... No Reyna buy promo or it would have been probably around T147
    WIth better early culure and better eurekas probably less, I am rusty, I have not played for quite a while.
    It was a good map so here are some saves from it
    I really struggle with all the micro abnd get lazy. Others here would do better, I would really like someone great like @DanQuayle to show how low it could go.
    So with Gilga. Get 4 carts and go west. You need to slot the +1 gold/+1 rfeligion card for at least 5 turns in case you find 20 faith... I found the CS but I knew where it was from a trial run and this is often how people can get more harvests than they should... I only trialled to about T30
    I should have pushed the Coli a little earlier as well.
    Gaining a vote to halve the cost of science buildings helped a lot with the chop phase.
    The T37 save is from my trial...Oh yeah, have to take Scythia early coz they get nasty fast, then a long trek with 4 chariots to Australia... To help them I levied 8 or so brunei warriors and a spear, levying really helps. Did not bother taking out Norway but they kept annoying me so I took their cap.
    upload_2019-6-16_5-4-47.png
     

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    Last edited: Jun 16, 2019
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  5. RoboEmperor

    RoboEmperor Warlord

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    Could you be a little more thorough in your explanation? Of your 418.9 science at turn 106, I understand that you got 111.4 from your conquered cities, but I still don't understand how you got 300 science from your settled cities. And some don't even have campus or universities yet.

    Could you explain what you did every 10 turns until turn 106? Speak like you're trying to teach an 8 year old how to copy you.

    I'm missing some kind of fundemental theory/trick/exploit all of you are using >.< T_T

    I'm going korea. I build seowon #1, monument #2, then library and universities #3. I couldn't beeline this any faster and here you are somehow doing this faster than me and getting more science than me and have the time to build ampitheaters and builders and even a Colosseum.
     
    Last edited: Jun 16, 2019
  6. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

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    The build does have Hypatia and Newton which are nice
    The build also has 3 science CS’s and as I said earlier, science CS are a big one.
    When you get phases right it does seem like magic and with the science building discount from Congress I had a massive shoot in science T95-110.
    I did not have pyramids but that is a small thing when you have harvest and plenty of chop.

    I think it is this third thing you are not getting right, and to be fair many do not. The big bit of advice for noobs that makes the most difference is do not complete districts until the planning phase. And while people follow it, it can be hard to get right.

    So first off I conquered Scythia and Australia to help with my numbers but removing Australia removes a large scientist threat and also my main CS competition but with Scythia they only had 2 cities (if they got to 3 they would probably start hitting double horsemen) and with Aus I captured 3 and a wandering settler but because I had no money for knights it was a hard job. So I only captured those 6 cities and 2 Norway ones later. The key was all in the earlier ones and will take time to type so am going to have a bath and open some cards from my kids then will explain the phases better.
     
  7. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

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    Phase 1 = expansion phase
    It is all in the title and whenever you make a decision during this phase think of the title. For example I have finished a monument in a new city and having places down a campus at the city founding I could now complete that... but I also need a granary, which do I get? Well the Granary helps with expansion but the campus does not so do not build the campus yet. If you have a granary and do not have anything else to build but a campus, build it but do not chop it, there is good reasons not to.
    During the expansion phase you should be getting out as many settlers as possible and killing opponents if not playing peaceful, these 2 are primary. When you get a new city you place down a campus straight away because it is cheaper right? Well if you have built 3 campuses you start shooting forward and if you exceed your culture numbers then you are paying for more for that campus than you need. The cost of a campus is the higher if the tech discoveries/total techs is higher than the civics/total civcs then you have pushed science too fast. So only finish what you need at least in the expansion phase, tings change completely in the planning phase. This takes me on to what a great player has said a few times... building a city after about T80 if planning to finish at T150 is fairly pointless unless you can fast chop it. So push those cities during expansion, placing your science district down at founding time. Now perhaps you may need a bit more culture and if so start with a theater in a couple, maybe slotting the +2 great writers card.... highly underrated. I did not do this because I could see a good coliseum spot... I think I got 8 cities ... and Coliseum is very important as is pyramids if you do not get harvest (after the patch with harvest gone you will always need pyramids) Planning location early is important. I stopped producing settlers when I had filled my coliseum ring. (coli not built yet). Harvest really helps get settlers out because buying them with faith is great. I got 1 city out early then stopped until I got the 50% settler card but limited them until I got my govt building a bit also. I think by about T60 I only had 1 campus built for the plaza inspiration.
    In the expansion phase you just do not know exactly how things will pan out because 'stuff' happens so you really concentrate on what I said + maybe a few others things for culture victory. Another key part of the expansion phase is culture and in my real game I never got to find a culture CS which is the best CS to get an envoy in early. Culture is so important early game this is why we push monuments as first builds in new cities but you should never sacrifice a university chop for a monument chop, if unsure do not chop. With harvest you do chop a bit early because you need faith to get settlers and remember chopping rice/wheat/crabs/cows is good enough. Planning Eureka's and inspirations is also an all game thing make decisions about what you can and cannot get.
    Phase 2, planning phase
    So when is the planning phase? roughly when you get to feudalism, this is so much more important for the extra builder chops than anything else but it is so great in so many ways. Now is the time you start chopping because your builders have more charges but also your chop is worth more.... roughly 80-120 are the most efficient times to be chopped as analysed by @Sostratus once. But do not chop immediately, you have been holding back and now you want a few fast discoveries/civics to increase chop rapidly. If culture is still leading the chop then there are some 1-2 turn civics at this time that also have envoys and you did not really need the CS power in spades before now... but with chopping in all of these science buildings we need to get at least 3 in each, more of a challenge. So during the planning phase you need to find a good chop place for Kilwa ASAP and this will also give 3 more envoys. You need to be working out what you need for victory, looking at the tech and civic trees and checking how soon you need each eureka and inspirations. Where you need a spaceport, what governor promotions you need when. How much gold you need by when, everything you need to get there... chop everything you need, ou need to get most of your Unis done also... seriously, at T80 I was on like 36 science then bam into the hundreds... at T90 I was on 100 so the last 17 turns before you see it at T107 was a massive increase and this is another noob mistake. They compare themselves to other civs at T80... like Duh, I would hope you were less, you are doing well if you are less.
    Phase 3, execution phase
    by far the dullest phase of doing and clicking next turn. One key thing during this phase if getting cities to 10 (food chops at 8 pop are a great way) upping adjacency to 3. Checking your cities are not growing more than needed to keep happiness good, using specialists where you can and using science projects in cities as the default if there is nothing else to do. Keeping an eye on everything.

    So looking back at my game I ws playing the planning phase in a rush during some work issues and forgot stuff. The faster you play the more you will forget and I like to play fast I get bored easily. I cannot remember which person from the Chinese forum it was but they said the lower they played the faster their game turn finishing. I am not competitive, I understand there is no such thing as best to me, just how much I enjoy life and I like it in the fast lane.

    Do you want me to replay the game 10 turns at a time explaining those 10 turns? It is probably overkill but I would get a GDR in under 150 doing it that way... we have a new patch coming and may not finish as I get quite busy, especially with family.

    So @RoboEmperor look at this quote from you in your opening statement and read it well and you will have your answer
     
    Last edited: Jul 6, 2019
  8. RoboEmperor

    RoboEmperor Warlord

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    This was a long time ago. I spit out as many settlers as possible now even before monument in a city or that 50% settler card. I've been going builder first for a mine and then settler until 10 and then go seowon/monument after I have at least 10 settled cities.

    I'll use your advice when I have the time first, so don't replay the game on my behalf. Thanks a lot.
     
  9. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

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    Good, but as I said read it carefully, no monument? Why commercial? and you still seem fixated on commercial a bit.
    Also with Gilgamesh those ziggurats are great next to a river and up science a lot as well as help culture.
    Good luck and thanks, replaying is zzz
     
  10. RoboEmperor

    RoboEmperor Warlord

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    It's not no monument, it was settlers before monument. But I'll change that now. District lock first. Monument second, settlers third.

    I go commercial 2nd for trade routes and money. University upkeep and unit upkeep killed me on prince so I need commercial to keep me from negative gold. On higher difficulties I guess you can made do with luxuries so you can go ampitheatre.
     
  11. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

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    Building them where your plaza is, even using Magnus chop and possibly provision. Harvest also increases fast settlers hugely, all of them can be done from Magnus. So cities typically do not all spew out settlers, it is not so efficient but perhaps some can.
    ... once again Gilgamesh helps hugely here, donkey carts have 0 maintenance and so I could use classic republic. I was near broke twice playing that game, which means you know you are doing it right. All of these people that love 200GPT are enjoying their game which is fine, but it is not as fast.
     
  12. Bibor

    Bibor Doomsday Machine

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    Maximum science?
    Sumeria ziggurat is 2 science. Build cities, conquer cities, use ziggurats. Korea might be hot for the first few cities (and it's super hot, don't get me wrong), but Ziggurats scale with empire size. All you need is worker charges. What's best, Ziggurats dont't replace underlying terrain, but rather add to it.

    Conquered city maxed out on districts? No problem - ziggurats. Want to grow and still build science? Ziggurats on floodplains. Don't know what to do with excess population in cities that need to produce nothing? Ziggurats!

    Ziggurats everywhere :crazyeye:
     
  13. RoboEmperor

    RoboEmperor Warlord

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    I thought about that, but the reason I keep sticking to korea is because of Rationalism and the +3 adjacency requirement. But at this time I think I should just stfu and follow victoria's gilgamesh and aim for a t200 GDR.

    I can't seem to make goddess of harvest work because I keep don't getting that age thing that lets me buy civilian units with faith so I'm hoping going Divine Spark instead delays GDR by only 50 turns.

    But right now I'm struggling real hard to get them universities up before turn 100 like Victoria did. Magnus Grand Tour ain't fast enough and there ain't enough woods to chop.
     
  14. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

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    Go for T120 for uni’s. As I said, the reason I got them in number is I got the cheap campus buildings vote
    EDIT: PLEASE NOTE: After the next patch with the loss of harvest goddess and reduction in great writer power fast science times will be longer.
     
    Last edited: Jun 17, 2019
  15. incroc

    incroc Chieftain

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    It's going away anyways, so not that useful to discuss - but ensure you have good exploration early. That always aids era score generation. Build at least one scout and a unit or two to clear barb camps (+2 or +3 for clearing one).

    Most of it comes from learning what actually gives you era score or not, there are some lists available if you google.
     
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  16. RoboEmperor

    RoboEmperor Warlord

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    Thanks for everything everyone. I looked up a recent turn 127 culture victory via sweden video, and they do all the things you guys said i should do.

    Their first 40 or so turns is very similar to mine, just building 3-4 settlers in the capitol. Then once ancestral hall pops out he chop built the AH, and then he bought a ton of builders from the AI money and they all chopped all the woods immediately for whatever they are building and then used that faith to spam buy settlers and that got him the 127 culture victory. He didn't do the magnus grand tour. He moved Magnus around a little but he chopped non-magnus cities quite a bit.

    Analyzing what you said and that video, this is what I was doing wrong:
    1. Settling cities as close to my capitol as possible, even if they were tundra or desert. I should've been settling in forest and stone heavy areas or maybe by the river on a hill and I should treat tundras and deserts as if they were oceans, unsettleable.
    2. Production doesn't matter. Everyone just chop built their entire cities. So my Industrial zone strategy is terrible
    3. Chop bonus resources. I thought chopping them was bad in the long run but it's not. It seems there's literally no reason to keep bonus resources around.
    4. Buy builders, not build builders. I've been using my money to buy tiles for Seowons or upgrading my archers to crossbowmen. I can win a deity war because I hit crossbowmen way before the Deity AI does, but I can't conquer anything because of walls.
    5. Wonders. Ever since Civ 5 I've never built wonders because I hate contesting them. But it seems they are the corner stone of all fast runs. Chop build Pyramid, Oracle, and Colosseum or go home.
    6. Goddess of Harvest. This is gonna go away so whatever.
    7. Sell luxuries to AI. Playing on low difficulties the AI is too poor to buy my stuff.
    8. Being Peaceful. I should be waging war and conquering all AI cities in my vicinity with my tech advantage instead of being peaceful if I want a faster GDR.

    So it becomes apparent why I keep failing. I'm peaceful so I let my neighbors forward settle me forcing me to settle in tundra. I save my chops for research labs instead of for universities which means my cities develop at the default snail pace of production. I never bought builders. I never built wonders. And I never abused Goddess of Harvest. I also never did the whole sell luxury to AI thing.

    I hit Victoria's science numbers with Korea 100 turns later than she did with half the number of her cities.

    I miss one city challenge... YOu just settle in the mountains on a hill next to a river and then spam next turn with an army of 3 units keeping you alive against Deity and then research agreement your way to XCOM tech and ROFLSTOMP the AI by parachuting 6 XCOM to their capitol. But damn it! GDR in this game looks way too badass for me to switch back to civ 5.

    I'm gonna see how far I can go by just doing 1-3. I'll try to do 4, and 7 at higher difficulties, but I'll probably never build wonders. Still on the fence about War.

    I got what I want from this thread so thanks everyone!
     
    Last edited: Jun 19, 2019
  17. RoboEmperor

    RoboEmperor Warlord

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    wtf... I hit T250 GDR with only 5 cities and 1 science state... I was Korea and built full culture districts because I had nothing else to do. And I hit the same GDR timing as I did with 10 cities.

    This game is so confusing. My science is 400 and I hit T250 GDR when I hit T250GDR with 700 science before. Maybe those 20 turns of building settlers spent on city development created a huge lead?

    I don't know at this point.... I'm just glad I hit T250 GDR with only 5 cities because of those goddamn forward settling immortal AI.

    Maybe it's the culture. Hitting Rationalism 40 turns earlier than I usually do made all the difference?
     
  18. knighterrant81

    knighterrant81 Warlord

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    Sounds like you got more Eurekas, maybe?
     
  19. RoboEmperor

    RoboEmperor Warlord

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    I doubt it, unless going culture unlocks a lot of eurekas.

    ---------------------------

    @Victoria
    I've been trying Sumeria, Rome, and Scythia out, and I just can't seem to destroy a civ that early. How'd you conquer civs that early? 4 War Carts takes out 1 city before needing to heal at which point the AI got walls up. When I get catapults he has catapults and war carts fail then. I thought about upgrading to knights but there were no iron near me.

    With Scythia I could kill 3 cities but not the capitol, and all my conquered cities just flipped. I had 6 horsemen. I didn't employ catapults, I probably should've.

    All of these were Immortal difficulty.
     
    Last edited: Jun 25, 2019
  20. RoboEmperor

    RoboEmperor Warlord

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    The new update's Automaton Warfare dedication settles this for me. I'm going Sweden! For more GDR rather than early GDR. I hit T280 GDR as Sweden with max Culture which is good enough seeing how on immortal Information era is like turn 300+. Could've hit it earlier if I didn't get sabotaged twice.

    My mistake was building Granaries and Watermills before Library and Ampitheater.

    Suzerain of only 4 city states though.

    With all victories except domination disabled the game becomes a GDR vs GDR war with one civ at the end so more GDR is better especialy since half the time I don't have Uranium so the early GDR doesn't really apply due to me needing to wipe out a country to get to the Uranium which usually ends up around T300 as Korea. So what's the point of getting T250 GDR tech if you can't build one until T300 due to war?

    It seems the T160 GDR timings hit by Victoria and Jerovich only happens with 3+ science CS.

    Selling Sweden's massive, massive amount of Diplomatic Favors resulted in sooooo much money I bought all the Industrial Zone buildings and like 3 research labs XD. I also skipped Commerical Hubs until last, after I got IZs on all my cities for vertical integration.

    THe only thing I don't like is that I had ancient era units until turn 90+ or so.

    I built the Stock Exchange and then had the city do Industrial projects after all the other buildings have been built. And then turned all of my trade routes into domesitc routes for one super production city for GDRs with magnus's Vertial Integration. No longer needed to rely on another civ for maintenence money.

    Good ol' firaxis doesn't disappoint on the ignore strategic resource front. In CivBe you could get strategic resources just through spies. In Civ 6 you got Nobel Prize in Physics.

    Number of cities was 9. Good multiple of 3 for Uranium.
     
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2019

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