How to nerfe State Property ...

[Giaur]

My idea is:
1) Civ cannot adopt another religious civic than Paganism or Free Religion.

 

[Mutineer]

Why do you want to nerf State property?

In allmost all cases mercantenilism is more beneficial.

 

[kovacsflo]

It depends on the situation.

State property means more gold since you can trade and less cost.
We could say that mercantilism is good for GP-s, but it's still not really true, 'couse more food (for w mills) results more GP. So, whenever your cities have at least two w mills in average, you won't have less GP than in Merc.

 

[Giaur]

@Mutineer: You are forgeting about it's +1 food bonus ...

 

[Giaur]

Also imagine capital placed on coast, running Bureurocracy, with Harbour with 400 beakers. Merchantilsm will lower these numbers to 250. And additional maintanance will force you to lower science slider for 10-20%.

edit: Also Merchantilism demands to build courthouse in every city. It's quite expensive building for non-organized civ ...

 

[ownedbyakorat]

Um, don't you pretty much want to build a courthouse in every city at the first reasonable opportunity anyway?

 

[acidsatyr]

nerf?? You mean buff?

 

[Thedrin]

I'm going to go out on a limb and predict that you, Giaur, consistently play warmongering games and develop very large empires. This would explain why you think state property is overpowered since, in such a situation, it is the best economy civic. There are plenty of situations where state property is not the best - plenty of situations where mercantilism, free market, or enviromentalism are better.

If you aren't consistently creating large empires, the other explanation would be that you aren't building courthouses.

@Mutineer: You are forgeting about it's +1 food bonus ...

Unless you have a huge empire (in which case you should be using state property anyway) this bonus won't add up to much unless you make a lot of changes to your empires improvements. Many small to medium sized empires can't afford the reduction in commerce that will usually go with such a change.

edit: Also Merchantilism demands to build courthouse in every city. It's quite expensive building for non-organized civ ...

OwnedByAKorat is right. You should build courthouses in all cities as soon as possible - long before any economy civic choices come along.

If you want state property weakened, a much simpler way of doing so is to simply raise the civic upkeep cost to medium or high. Why not just try out a single game with that change:

1) If you're using Warlords go into the file
C:\Program Files\Firaxis Games\Sid Meier's Civilization 4\Warlords\Assets\XML\GameInfo\CIV4CivicInfos.xml
or if you are using Vanilla go into the file
C:\Program Files\Firaxis Games\Sid Meier's Civilization 4\Assets\XML\GameInfo\CIV4CivicInfos.xml
2) Searching the text for 'property' will take you straight to state property information.
3) Change <Upkeep>UPKEEP_LOW</Upkeep>
to either <Upkeep>UPKEEP_MEDIUM</Upkeep> or <Upkeep>UPKEEP_HIGH</Upkeep> depending on whether you want medium or high upkeep.

 

[Rancid Sushi]

Yeah, no way should communism be that useful. IRL, it is simply not as efficient as a free market economy.

 

[Giaur]

Courthouses? Are you kidding? It's not no-brain choice building courthouse in every city. When you have 30 cities, SP is known long ago. And I can say, I simply saved the money. I'd rather see library.

And that's the whole trick. Avoiding building courthouses, by the fact that every city has virtual courthouse. And one more courthouse is just a waste of money.

 

[darrelljs]

Let's not forget Mercantilism ends foreign trade routes, which can hurt your opponents much more than you in many situations.

Darrell

 

[bonafide11]

Umm... regardless of ideological or political beliefs, it is hard to argue with how both China and Soviet Russia developed powerful industrial economies within such a short time span, as well as maintained huge empires... Russia went from a backwards feudal society to an industrial super power in less than thirty years. So care to defend your post a little more? I don't think it's as "simple" as you want to believe.

Yeah, no way should communism be that useful. IRL, it is simply not as efficient as a free market economy.

 

[DigitalBoy]

State Property should have a high upkeep. If not for balance, then just for flavor. How does the government controlling all means of production warrant anything other than a high upkeep? (Granted, you do control production under any civic mbut that's not the point. )

 

[bonafide11]

I'd hate to see them do that just because I love state property as it is. For me, I'd rather see them make Police State better (medium upkeep maybe?) than change State Property...

State Property should have a high upkeep. If not for balance, then just for flavor. How does the government controlling all means of production warrant anything other than a high upkeep? (Granted, you do control production under any civic mbut that's not the point. )

 

[jihe]

If you have 30 cities and your opponent 10, then he gets 30 trade routes to your 10.
Plus if you war a lot you with your neighbours trade routes may be blocked etc.

Courthouses? Are you kidding? It's not no-brain choice building courthouse in every city. When you have 30 cities, SP is known long ago. And I can say, I simply saved the money. I'd rather see library.

And that's the whole trick. Avoiding building courthouses, by the fact that every city has virtual courthouse. And one more courthouse is just a waste of money.

 

[shyuhe]

SP is awesome for sprawling empires but it's useless if you're around 6-8 cities. As this makes it situationally dependent (we don't ALWAYS have to play for a domination win ), I don't think it's necessarily overpowered. It's just overpowered if you're a warmonger.

 

[bonafide11]

Do courthouses still reduce maintence when you're using state property? Or does state property make them worthless, and so are you better off not building them in new cities?

 

[clblabin]

It does seem odd to me that in all the Civ games (since Civ2 at least, never played Civ1) Communism/SP has given a reduction in corruption/maintenance and now includes a food bonus as well. If I was designing a game (hah), I would make SP have high upkeep and then give it some kind of production boost.

As it stands though, I find SP to be generally the strongest civic in its class, but definitely not always.

Do courthouses still reduce maintence when you're using state property? Or does state property make them worthless, and so are you better off not building them in new cities?

You still pay maintance based on the number of cities you have, so courthouses are sometimes helpful under SP if you have a really huge empire. Well, I THINK.

 

[gettingfat]

Umm... regardless of ideological or political beliefs, it is hard to argue with how both China and Soviet Russia developed powerful industrial economies within such a short time span, as well as maintained huge empires... Russia went from a backwards feudal society to an industrial super power in less than thirty years. So care to defend your post a little more? I don't think it's as "simple" as you want to believe.

Forget the ideology and talk about historical facts, I don't know much about the USSR, in China the reality is the Great Leap Movement almost destroyed their economy. Millions of people practically starved to death. In early 80's the majority of people were near the poverty line. There was a famous popular saying in China back then: "Work, get $36; don't work, get $36", which means those employees in those state-owned companies would receive only $36 RMB per month regardless of whether they are lazy or hardworking. State-owned economy has been shown to be highly inefficient, or else please explain why China gets rich so fast when Deng XiaoPeng abandoned the system for "revised socialism" (= capitalistic economy).

For USSR, there are also a lot of exploitation of the non-Russian people involved.

And where is the industrial powerhouse in Cuba and N. Korea?

The so-called industrial powerhouse phenomenon is indeed not as "simple" as you claimed. In game's terms, the communism option in Civ 3 (or 2?) is actually more realistic. The enhancement in hammers is largely derived from diminished commerce, cheap labor and subsequent reduction of happiness.

 

[DigitalBoy]

Do courthouses still reduce maintence when you're using state property? Or does state property make them worthless, and so are you better off not building them in new cities?

Maintenance has two parts: "number of cities" and "distance from palace." State Property completely eliminates the latter, but you still have to cope with number of cities maintenance. However, I think "number of cities" maintenance caps at some small amount, like 6.00 gold, while "distance from palace" maintenance has no limit (or at least, it's a much higher cap), so SP can slash maintenance in far away cities by more than a half.