How to play progress?

[MarvelOfRain]

Hi, I am quite new to Vox Populi and Civilization in general. For last month or so I have been exploring the mod (mostly on King and later on Emperor once I understood all the concepts).

I have pretty good idea how to use Authority and Tradition as openers and where are their strengths and weaknesses. Progress on the other hand is something that I just don’t understand and don’t know how to use to its full potential. Can anyone with more experience help me to understand how to play with progress? Thanks in advance for any advice!

Here are some things I am not sure about:

How many cities do you want as progress?
How do you get enough land to settle a lot (do you go to war like authority?)
What are the best civs for progress?
What are benefits of progress over authority?
How to deal with the ai being angry once you settle a bunch?
How do you combat the lack of hammers progress has as opposed to authority?

 

[crdvis16]

How many cities do you want as progress?

My general rule is that if I'm going to go Progress then I want to be able to settle 6+ good, safe city locations. "Safe" means the cities I settle aren't easily conquerable by my neighbors due to geography or terrain. "Good" means that the cities have generally strong tiles or give me access to needed strategic/lux resources.

How do you get enough land to settle a lot (do you go to war like authority?)

I typically purposely do NOT go to war in the early game in order to secure land as progress, but that's more of a role-play type thing for me than a strategic thing. I'm sure there are times when going to war early game as progress is the right move but if that's my plan then I would have gone authority. In general, you shouldn't always HAVE to go to war to secure enough land to settle 6+ cities using standard map size/civ# settings. When I play progress I am able to settle 6+ cities without warring.

What are benefits of progress over authority?

What are the best civs for progress?

In general, I think progress takes the best advantage of settling wide whereas authority takes advantage of early war and tradition takes advantage of going tall. There are some other ways that progress can shine, though. Civs with early science strength (Babylon, Ethiopia, etc), ability to easily connect their cities early (Iroquois, Carthage), or civs that innately create really strong tiles such that otherwise weak city locations become good enough to settle (Indonesia, Morocco, etc) can all shine using progress. These 3 characteristics synergize well with bonuses in progress and would make me lean toward progress when playing civs that have some of them.

How to deal with the ai being angry once you settle a bunch?

Do not fall behind in military. I try to keep my unit count somewhat near my cap once the initial rush for city locations is over. Having a decent military will discourage DoWs. However, you will still get DoW'd on occasion but it shouldn't be a serious threat if you've settled your cities in defensible locations. Rivers/hills/mountain should help protect your cities and make invasion difficult.

Also, perhaps paying attention to diplomacy while playing progress is more important than with tradition/authority. Getting as many positive modifiers with civs that you do not wish to go to war with can make things easier. If you have a decent military and have made an effort to befriend at least some civs then you should find yourself in a decent position. Knowing who to befriend and who to just assume is going to be your enemy takes some experience to figure out.

How do you combat the lack of hammers progress has as opposed to authority?

If you find your cities lack production then purposely working production tiles (early mines are underrated IMO) can help. When I play progress I typically rate production higher and therefor might work more production tiles. I find that the automatic city manager will over prioritize food when playing progress (whereas when playing tradition I find the auto manager's preference for food is fine).

 

[Stalker0]

One thing I will say for Progress, is I build a LOT of workers. One...you want your roads up quickly to capitalize on the +3 science for every city connection. 2...I find infrastructure is strongest for progress...tradition mainly cares about the capital but with progress you want all of your cities to be good contributors (and you tend to have a lot of them)….so more workers ensures a good infrastructure base.

 

[CrazyG]

How many cities do you want as progress?
How do you get enough land to settle a lot (do you go to war like authority?)
What are the best civs for progress?
What are benefits of progress over authority?
How to deal with the ai being angry once you settle a bunch?
How do you combat the lack of hammers progress has as opposed to authority?

1. I want 6 to 10 cities. Sometimes you need to fight for a couple of the cities.
2. I sometimes fight one quick war in the early game, just to get some land. Sometimes you get enough land by yourself, especially if there are a few islands or something.
3. Carthage is the queen or progress IMO. Her bonus gold helps you settle the cities quickly, and her special boat is a good tool to help you take a city if you need to (but she isn't a very good warrior long term).
4. Progress generally has better science and her culture is much more consistent (authority must fight all game, progress is able to take a break). The worker bonus is quite valuable.
5. War if you need to
6. The free worker helps compensate for the fewer hammers. Build mines on hills, especially after you have the +3 food in every city policy.

I usually have 1 worker per city, plus 1 extra. Improving tiles quickly and constantly is important. If your starting luxury has a strong monopoly (such as wine's +2 faith), progress is often able to connect it very quickly leading to a strong early game.

 

[MarvelOfRain]

Thank you all very much.

Will try progress later, I can already see a bunch of stuff that go against my normal playstyle (focus on workers for example), I will probably go with Indonesia or China (seems like they can work a lot of hills since they get extra food).

One last question: When do you go for your first settler? I usually go monument -> Stonehenge -> Temple of Artemis before settlers. I guess that might be the reason why I lack space to plant bunch of cities early.

 

[Coffee Monopoly]

Progress really doesn't like early wonders because you wanna get your infrastructure up asap. Pyramids would be the exception because it gives you a settler. On the flipside, due to the worker bonuses it's great with improvement-dependent pantheons, and those don't need Stonehenge rushing because you need workers and time anyway to get the improvements up. I don't see why you'd even want Artemis in Progress either. Seems like you really shoehorned yourself into doing the same opening every game, which probably isn't a good idea if you want to improve. Experiment and think about your options!

 

[Stalker0]

Progress really doesn't like early wonders because you wanna get your infrastructure up asap!

I agree. If you want to go wonders early as progress, you will need to then do some warring to stretch your borders. Nothing wrong with that, but going peaceful requires a commitment to strong expansion early.

generally I go for a very strong forward settle to set my borders. Once that is done, then you can settle your inner area more leisurely.

 

[MarvelOfRain]

Seems like you really shoehorned yourself into doing the same opening every game, which probably isn't a good idea if you want to improve. Experiment and think about your options!

Exactly the reason why I started this thread. I think the number of options is the single best aspect of Vox Populi and I really wanted to try slightly different strategies.

Progress really doesn't like early wonders because you wanna get your infrastructure up asap. Pyramids would be the exception because it gives you a settler. On the flipside, due to the worker bonuses, it's great with improvement-dependent pantheons, and those don't need Stonehenge rushing because you need workers and time anyway to get the improvements up.

Hmm, so essentially you use workers to do the same things you can do in Tradition/Authority with Wonders (including faith generation). That is probably the missing piece of the puzzle for me I have seen the worker policy but never changed my playstyle around it.

I agree. If you want to go wonders early as progress, you will need to then do some warring to stretch your borders. Nothing wrong with that, but going peaceful requires a commitment to strong expansion early.

generally I go for a very strong forward settle to set my borders. Once that is done, then you can settle your inner area more leisurely.

That was the main problem for me. Timing with Wonder spamming is slightly off so you get your 2nd city too late and cannot really claim the contested land. Also, you don't get the free hammers and settler authority gets so the slowdown hurts even more.

For the next game, I will probably try Dido using the gold to help secure the expansions against barbarians and get a bunch of extra workers. Thanks to everyone for help and have a nice day!

 

[azum4roll]

Also as progress you want to use your gold to speedup buildings instead of buying workers. Except maybe the very first worker. More buildings = more culture.

 

[Guynemer]

Carthage and Iroquois are obvious big contenders for best progress civs; I find I go progress whenever I have a) a civ with a unique improvement (since Tradition will be working mostly specialists and GPIs), and b) the civ doesn't have a heavy focus towards conquest based on UA.

 

[KaoticKanine]

I find I go progress whenever I have a) a civ with a unique improvement (since Tradition will be working mostly specialists and GPIs)

That's making me wonder: lately, I had playing games as the Celts and coming up with a strategy that makes use of the Oppidium (a Unique Great Person Improvement, courtesy of pineappledan's More UCs), and played all those games as Progress because, as a Religious Civ, going wide is preferable to tall and makes use of the Celts' +3 Faith per owned city with majority religion (and Progress still allows for specialist play). But perhaps Tradition is better suited to my desired strategy, since the Oppidiums are GPIs?

 

[Guynemer]

You'd probably be able to crank out more of them as Tradition; I can easily get to 6-8 cities as Tradition and not feel like I've overextended myself. Celts would pose an interesting decision there.

 

[MarvelOfRain]

Carthage and Iroquois are obvious big contenders for best progress civs; I find I go progress whenever I have a) a civ with a unique improvement (since Tradition will be working mostly specialists and GPIs), and b) the civ doesn't have a heavy focus towards conquest based on UA.

Yeah, I got about 150ish turns into a game as Carthage after starting this thread and it is truly insane. I never realized how much money you actually get from their UA (when you add in the gold from the lighthouse tiles). I managed to knock out Persia with archers from the extra money (3 archers, warrior, and a worker bought in the first 50-ish turns!) and get control of the entire landmass. When I ended last night I had 10 cities, great religion and was leading in every Demographic except soldiers and approval. It seems like my problem with progress was indeed the early Wonder spamming - expansions seem much more important to play progress.

I also thought stuff like India might be good - as progress you can probably maximize the potential of the Reservoir which scales based on the number of farms in your empire.

That's making me wonder: lately, I had playing games as the Celts and coming up with a strategy that makes use of the Oppidium (a Unique Great Person Improvement, courtesy of pineappledan's More UCs), and played all those games as Progress because, as a Religious Civ, going wide is preferable to tall and makes use of the Celts' +3 Faith per owned city with majority religion (and Progress still allows for specialist play). But perhaps Tradition is better suited to my desired strategy, since the Oppidiums are GPIs?

I will stick with authority for religious civs though (at least for the time being). Orders + Zealotry is a great combination that with large enough empire means you get an extra unit each turn and when you also add in Crusade you snowball out of control while leading a war at the same time!

 

[TranceBlossom]

I also thought stuff like India might be good - as progress you can probably maximize the potential of the Reservoir which scales based on the number of farms in your empire.

India's UA and UB gives them tons of growth, which makes them generally better suited for Tradition. Having tons of growth with lots of cities is a recipe for hitting a wall of unhappiness.

With Tradition, especially with India, you'll generally only work Specialists and Farms in the capital (unless you're building a wonder or something), so the reservoir boosting farms actually makes an even better case for tradition. You'll work relatively less farms with progress.

 

[Coffee Monopoly]

If we're talking about great Progress civs, I'd say Babylon is also one of the best. Both their building buyout bonus and their focus on science synergise really well with the ways Progress generates culture. Their UB is also perfectly set up to work scientists while going wide-ish, so Tradition isn't that good a choice for them imo.

I definitely agree with Carthage being really strong with Progress, but Authority can also work if you go quinquireme warmongering and tributing very early. I was actually shocked when I found out that due to how early they come in the tech tree compared to their strength, in one game I was able to extort some city states in the Ancient Era with a single ship.

I will stick with authority for religious civs though (at least for the time being). Orders + Zealotry is a great combination that with large enough empire means you get an extra unit each turn and when you also add in Crusade you snowball out of control while leading a war at the same time!

I recently played a game as warmonger Theodora with a Zealotry cataphract rush, and it was insanely powerful due to the absurd amounts of faith she produces from her UB, AND the units being cheaper to buy on top of it. So yes, Authority can work great with religious civs, but religious civs are generally pretty flexible and can pick from a variety of playstyles, especially Celts and Byzantines. I've also played a Progress Theodora to great success, twice. But that's just my favourite civ in general.

 

[MarvelOfRain]

If we're talking about great Progress civs, I'd say Babylon is also one of the best. Both their building buyout bonus and their focus on science synergise really well with the ways Progress generates culture. Their UB is also perfectly set up to work scientists while going wide-ish, so Tradition isn't that good a choice for them imo.

That was one I was also looking to try, but given that I played them a lot recently (seemed like good civ to learn the new mechanics with) I don't think I will be trying them for a while. The Maya will be probably the next civ once I will want to play as Progress again.

So yes, Authority can work great with religious civs, but religious civs are generally pretty flexible and can pick from a variety of playstyles, especially Celts and Byzantines. I've also played a Progress Theodora to great success, twice. But that's just my favourite civ in general.

I meant that playing that strat is soo much fun for me that I don't really want to pass the opportunity to play with it. Otherwise, obviously all religious civs are really flexible. The fact you can get double reformation belief as Byzantium (I think, haven't played them yet) makes them really interesting.

Update on my Carthage game: making about 550 gold per turn. I went with Artistry, Industry and Freedom which seemed like they worked best with what I was doing. I also tried different religion strat - no religous buildings and Prophecy, so I am sitting at like 6 holy sites right now and still getting one prophet about every 20-ish turns even in the industrial era. Currently, my only problem is that I have really nothing to build in any of my cities except for military units (I am trying for a more peaceful game + global peace accords is in effect so not really something I prioritize highly). I have most cities set on research trying to get more stuff to do, once we get radio it will likely get a lot better since with more paper I should be able to build a bunch of diplomatic units.

I will most likely win through culture - I am already rising with all known civs (about 40-60% to influential with everyone), have the highest tourism output and have only hotels as far as Tourism buildings/techs go, so it should only increase. Diplomatic victory seems unlikely since Maya and Greece are going for city-states pretty hard (and a bunch of other civs have Statecraft), but I am trying to pass a lot of spheres of influence (mostly on Greek city-states with help of Maya), so who knows. Science victory is also an option but I find that one too slow in Vox Populi.

For the next game I will probably go with something more familiar, but up the difficulty to immortal. I feel ready to lose a bunch now

 

[Coffee Monopoly]

The fact you can get double reformation belief as Byzantium (I think, haven't played them yet) makes them really interesting.

You can't pick a reformation belief for your bonus, only founder, follower or enhancer. Double founder is usually the best.