How to REX well?

To those of you who say not to build markets...I really don't understand this. You say to build granaries, they are better than markets. What are you even talking about? Of course you build a granary first...you'd never build a market before a granary...but by the late game nearly all of my cities have markets in them, so I don't know what you people are talking about. A market isn't one of the first buildings to go into a city, but it's worth building in most cities, in most of my games. If you have REXed and you're running the slider at around 60% tax and you have a couple of cities that have been working cottages for almost the whole game up until that point, you could easily be pulling in 40+ commerce in those cities by the time you get to currency, so we're talking around 25 gpt, and a market will boost that by 5. When you've rexed and your economy needs to recover, those gpt are worth it, and of course the extra happy is very helpful too. I'm very curious to hear who doesn't build markets...are you diety players, or are you noble players? I doubt diety level players could afford to skip that building. Seriously.

People have already mentioned that we're talking early markets, not saying never build them. However, you should also consider: a market yields roughly the same number of beakers as a library (insomuch that it raises your effective research rate) but it costs much more. And there's no discounts.

So, the decision to build them usually depends on other factors: merchant slots and resources. Often, by the time I'm getting around to build wealth multipliers, I'm considering grocers or maybe banks as alternatives to markets and deciding they would do better. Grocers also give the merchant slots (usually not a big deal) and the health resources are more common and are starting to be needed. Banks give a better multiplier, of course.
 
@bhav

I am not impressed with your rex at all.
Your beaker rate is bad and, from the screenshots you research AL while your spaceship should already be on its way.
First, you play emperor and below, you turn off barbs, you reload, pick your rivals.
You also find plains hill start with corn and pigs, 3 river grasslands, and a lot of hills horrible.
You also think that HOF games are the most skillful. HOF games are at least 60% luck, and at least 3 grassland gems starts, which many players here, including me, probably Mylene too, discard for being too easy. HOF games are the art of cooking your games, and there are some really good chefs around like Wastin Time, THawk, STW, and others, but, still, not you, not at this moment.

This is why I think you are in no position to undermine Mylene, which has some rep around here.
I don't intend to flame you, and if you think my words are too harsh, please consider that I am not a native English speaker.


Regarding warring, which you don't enjoy, well if you play a high level game, you can play peacefully, but sometimes, actually very often, you can't win without war. You must be able to determine when you have to go to war. It has nothing to do with your playstyle. It is determined by your map.

I just think you should be more ready to take an advice.
 
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9 threads, 2 playthroughs. Far many other people, including me have contributed a lot more with playthrough threads and even videos, and very few Deity level players agree with Mylene's suggestions, most actually play completely differently, e.g. Rexing with either Darius or Sury is a very common and highly respected tactic by most high level players.

According to what I've seen, tested, and been advised by top players in the HOF section, Rexing is good and gets the highest scores and earliest win dates for space victory, and also Sury is the top early game leader in the game, Im going to listen to these people and have my own confirmation from playing these strategies myself before I listen to a person with only 9 threads.
 
@bhav

snip

Firstly some of the links I posted were mainly from 2009. One or two of them were clearly on Immortal difficulty since Ive moved up since 2009. The very first rex game I posted was Immortal level Hannibal, after which I felt like playing just one game on Noble for nothing more than fun. My science rate was low because I was running the slider lower to make 200+ GPT for rush buys, I wasnt running scientist specialists anywhere nor generating great scientists (I was using a great merchant farm and focusing on GPT, not BPT). Also the noble game wasnt in anyway serious, nor were I looking for the fastest win time possible.

There are plenty more reputable people posting here than Mylene who dont have a single bad word to say about Rexing.

Regarding map regenaration, victory on higher difficulties is completely map dependatnt - you cannot win Deity if you start on a small isolated island with space for only 6 cities. Winning the game without war is completely possible with rexing, but it is just as dependant as playing an early rush civ and hoping you start out near enough to enemy civs, which again unless you stick to playing pangea rarely ever happens.

Looking for a good map in Civ 4 is no more cheating than the ridiculous amount of cheats the AI gets on Immortal+. If the game was fair in anyway then the player would start with the same number or workers and settlers, plus the AI wouldnt recieve free unit upkeep costs.

Regarding HOF games, the reason why these are a better method of analyzing gameplay are due to the ruleset they follow which is equal for all players. If you think that they are easy, thwn why not go ahead and post the top score / earliest win date for the current major challenge?

I prefer looking at HOF game strategies rather than all the games that are posted without locked modified assets enabled, since I absolutely cant tell whether the player has been using the world builder or not unless it is turned off like it is in all my games.
 
9 threads, 2 playthroughs. Far many other people, including me have contributed a lot more with playthrough threads and even videos, and very few Deity level players agree with Mylene's suggestions, most actually play completely differently, e.g. Rexing with either Darius or Sury is a very common and highly respected tactic by most high level players.

According to what I've seen, tested, and been advised by top players in the HOF section, Rexing is good and gets the highest scores and earliest win dates for space victory, and also Sury is the top early game leader in the game, Im going to listen to these people and have my own confirmation from playing these strategies myself before I listen to a person with only 9 threads.

you're a bit too defensive on this one.

For example AZ in his video very rarely does classical rex, he lets usually AI's settle the land to take over (he favors BC era warfare).
Another great player "obsolete" is famous for small city count break outs.
Mylene likes small compact empires with break out strategies too.

5-6 city renaissance break out is very common on deity/immortal. It has the advantage of developed land from AI's and very strong attack dates (like 600 AD cuirs etc)
 
This thread isnt about 'small empire breakout strategies' though, the OP wanted specific help on how to REX well.

Most people who play Civ enjoy and prefer conquest and domination up to Deity difficulties, the small empire and then war strategy works for this. But this thread isnt asking for help with that, it is asking about REX strategy.

You dont rex + war at the same time, just as you dont rex and wonderspam. They are completely different tactics and are all completely map and leader dependant.

I havnt stated anywhere that any other strategies than REX dont work, and never would. Neither would AZ, obsolete, nor TMIT, Kossin or you would come into a thread like this and post:

Moderator Action: Removed personal attack.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889
 
wrong thread
 
I am not against rex, it just happens it is not always possible. There are leaders other than Sury and Darius, actually 50+ of them, and it is fun to play them too. It is just that our approaches are so different. I have won at least 5 deity isolations, and am playing one right now, though I don't like where this one is going. Winning a HOF start game isn't nearly as rewarding as winning against all odds.

Yes, and in HOF starts you pursue a specific VC, and optimize your game according to it, and if you fail, you try again, and again, and again. Many players just try to win whatever map generator throws at them, therefore, you'll never be able to play it optimal.

I also don't like the idea that score determines how well you played. If you manage to win cultural victory sandwiched between shaka, alexander and monty, you'll probably have a low score, but you truly are a master of this game (and lucky one too).
Beating HOF dates sure is not easy, and I'll never attempt it, simply cause I don't have enough time, unlike WastinTime.
Whole thinking behind HOF is different, you use induction in HOF, and deduction in random or GOTM game.
I am more of a GOTM type of a player, but still don't consider myself skilled enough, nor I have enough time in RL to actually attempt to beat our elite.

Triple gold start with enough food to work them, and barbs off is always at least difficulty below than the one you picked in my book.
 
I think a lot depends on your definition of REXing? Imo a REX is nothing less than expanding to the point where you have your research slider at zero and are bringing in negative, yep, negative gold per turn, or close to it. After all, we are talking about a RAPID expansion, otherwise you're simply settling your land, blocking, and bringing your research/tech back up for a second settling wave later.

The other half has to do with what level you play. Imo levels such as Immortal/Deity don't allow for an all out REX, say where you have settled 10 cities around 1000 (IMP) - 700 BC range (normal speed).

IMO a REX should follow something along these lines:

Early focus should be on Libraries and running scientist to fuel research. During a true REX cottages should be minimal because they serve nothing more than gold which will cover your maintenance cost, along with gems and gold mines (if they're available). Fail gold from Wonders is another great way to get gold, especially with stone/marble or any Industrious leader, Although I prefer CRE for ideal REXing.

During a REX the emphasis should be on land grabbing so you should prioritize techs like Writing for scientist, Alpha for building research and trading (scientist help you reach Alpha fastest, barring an Oracle slingshot), and Currency (at which point all your problems are solved) for building wealth, +1 trade routes, and of course, selling techs for cash.

Another great thing about scientist is they allow you to work fewer tiles while still bringing in pure beakers to fuel research which is very important. This is huge imo because its really important to grab and settle the land first. If you make too many early workers you end up delaying your settle spam.

A nice leader to practice REXing with is Cathy. IMP is great, especially when paired with CRE because it allows you to quickly produce/chop settlers from your Capital and run 2 scientist. It usually works out like 7-8 turns per settler with 2 scientist and 3-4 with chops (2 workers/1 chop each). You're second city should also be a settler pump, while you're 3rd city can work some scientist. Settle the 1st GS in Capital. A great initial build for Cathy is to research a food tech, then BW while queing a warrior, grow to 2 pop then directly chop a settler and one worker. One worker improves at home to happy cap, chops another worker, Library, runs 2 scientist, then begin chopping (kill all the trees!!, lol) 5 settlers. The other worker (2 pop) follows your settler. The early founded city grows to 3 pop and begins settler pumping as well. 3rd city can run 2 scientist while you're 4th city and beyond can concentrate on making workers/units.

The key is to put your slider to zero after you've researched Writing and once you have 2 scientist in your Capital go to 100% until Alpha is finished, at which point throw the slider back to zero, accumulate gold (you'll need it), and use scientists (and a settled GS) and building research (new cities, even at 1 or 2 pop with no improvements help) to fuel research to Currency. When using this strategy with Cathy on say Monarchy, you'll normally have 10 cities by around 1000 BC, a zero research slider, and typically negative 15 - 22 gold per turn with Currency anywhere from 4-8 turns away (I usually grab it sometime in the 800s).

Imo the key tech is Currency and the quickest way to get there is via scientist and then scientist/building research. Food rich cities can run scientist, work cottages, and grow while production cities that aren't making more settlers/workers/units build research. You should be able to gain enough happiness resources to skip Monarchy until you can trade for it which lets you be a little more flexible with tech choices after Currency. Besides, with a huge land grab comes lots of luxuries not to mention alpha which allows you to trade your monopolies for the luxuries you need for more happiness.

What I think are key points:

1. Scientist are your friend
2. You can never chop enough
3. Lower initial worker count (3) actually helps fuel you're REX
4. On Monarch and below you typically don't need Chariots/Axe/or Archers and on most standard size maps your settle spam plus AI do enormous amounts of fog busting allowing you to save hammers for initial units.
5. Hunting/Mining Leaders work best (and most are CRE, yay!) because they allow you to work a food source and directly chop, and, they also allow you to bypass the WHL and POT, so you can tech through AH, WRT, Alpha, where you can then backfil. You absolutely do not need a single cottage nor granary till that point anyways and unless you're playing on Emperor, you don't need roads yet either.
6. Infrastructure: IMO its best to beeline as quickly as possible to Currency, therefore, unless you're an EXP leader such as Sury, I would delay granaries in every city (at the very least most of them). The key is to balance having enough gold so you can deficit research Currency. If you can squeeze in a few granaries via the whip and retain balance then go for it but in my experience, unless you have 2+ gold/gem mines, you need to delay granaries. Besides, the key is to go horizontal and mass land grab. Once you hit Currency you can focus on going vertical.

Hope this helps the OP!! If nothing else it can serve as a general guide that can be incorporated into other leaders as well ;)
 
Winning a HOF start game isn't nearly as rewarding as winning against all odds.

Yes, and in HOF starts you pursue a specific VC, and optimize your game according to it, and if you fail, you try again, and again, and again. Many players just try to win whatever map generator throws at them, therefore, you'll never be able to play it optimal.

They are two different approaches to playing the game. I have my strategy that I want to play before I've even seen the world map. Playing a HOF game doesnt in anyway indicate any kind of start, all it does is fix a certain victory condition, and disallow players from reloading or using the world builder. The challenges for the majors tend to require playing several games simply because of how difficult they are. Playing on normal forum games is always a lot easier because everyone plays on the same map and gets to read other peoples hints and spoilers. This is a very good learning tool for many players, but it is still far below the difficultly of most HOF challenges.

In anyway, people who simply play and post random games in the strategy section shouldnt be telling others how they should and shouldnt play the game. There is no fixed strategy that will win every map, and even if you get a map that favours a particular strategy, that is not to say that this or any other strategy will still work or not. Civ is such a random game that you cannot dismiss a strategy like REXing on the basis that 'I only play cramped Pangea maps with no room to expand, therefore REX rarely works'.

There are leaders other than Sury and Darius, actually 50+ of them, and it is fun to play them too.

Its fun to play as all the leaders on Noble difficulty, but when you move to higher difficulties a lot of people want traits that counter the increased maintenance and / or provide a quicker city development time so that you can keep up better with the AI. Tokugawa for example wouldnt suit Deity level too well as Agg and Pro arent going to help you counter the vastly increased maintenance costs. That doesnt mean that you cant play Tokugawa on Deity level, you most certainly can but I would rather not.

I find that conquest is a far larger gamble on higher difficulties than REX or any other strategy due to how fast the AI advances. You have incredibly smaller windows of opportunity to launch an attack the higher the difficulty is, and if your attack fails then you are permanently crippled for the rest of the game. Conquest is not any more reliable than peaceful expansion, for my playstyle the latter is more reliable.


This was the most perfect and best post in this thread, well done to you for actually taking the effort to write that. Rexing is what makes CRE is such a powerful trait - fast libraries and free border pops. I normally prefer Sury or Gilgamesh to Catherine though as I prefer having EXP to IMP, or the Ziggurat UB. If you play with unrestriced leaders, you have to try out Sury of Sumeria for Rexing - 50% cheaper libraries and grannaries, and 25% cheaper Courthouses that you get a lot sooner plus a worker discount, and +2 :health: per city to grow them larger.
 
Great post Cseanny . I agree with pretty much everything just questioning where you mention not needing roads . I road up big time when I REX for the trade routes , barb defense and emergencies i.e. AI declaration .

You really pointed out some massive benefits of this style of play , one of the main one beings the resources you can grab . Allows a far more flexible tech path (avoiding monarchy or any religious techs) and less happy / health buildings allowing focus on building research then eventually forges and courthouses . You can also chop with less concern for health .

Cathy is the queen for this style as you pointed out . Best of the non creative Civs IMHO are Ghengis , Sulieman and Joab . This style of play can be very effective without any economic traits , size is your economy . Just load up on scientists and chop those libraries .

This is a fun way to play and I think your post nailed the OP's question
 
I just started my first game as Catherine on Immortal, and tried to make a thread, but it accidentally went into the Civ V section, and then it was accidentally moved into the Civ IV Col section (funny).

For now the thread is here:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=11194954#post11194954

It has a very large open space to rex in, a high production + food capital, and lots of gold resources.
 
Great post Cseanny . I agree with pretty much everything just questioning where you mention not needing roads . I road up big time when I REX for the trade routes , barb defense and emergencies i.e. AI declaration .

Thanks ;)

As far as the roads go.... IMO, for Monarch and below, as soon as you get Alpha, just trade for WHL and begin connecting your cities and luxuries as your worker force increases. So yea, you definitely want roads but the timing can be delayed right to the point until Currency is almost finished. I thinks its more important to bypass WHL because:

1. You end up having to research it yourself before writing/library/scientist/25% bonus so it takes longer to research
2. It delays your research time to Currency
3. Imo you benefit in the long run by having your initial workers chopping which will get you future workers/farms/scientist/mines faster which will lead to a greater gain in research (before Currency) than you could by saving a few extra gold per turn with an earlier trade route.

For me it usually works out that around the time my 3rd/4th settler is finished my Capital is void of all trees so I'll bring those 2 workers, along with the 2nd city worker and they all join up at my 3rd city where they chop out a worker, then quickly build 2 food resources, then chop out a library.

Then I like to split up my workers (4 total) into groups of 2 and head off to 2 different newly founded cities at which point they (both groups) chop down 4+ trees (if available) for 2 workers at each city. At that point you repeat the process with 2 more groups of 2 workers while the rest begin hooking up roads and resources in preparation for Currency/routes.

To back up just a bit, if you felt barbs were going to be an issue one groups of workers would rapidly chop out some warriors then get back to the 2 by 2 for different cities approach. Now, if you're playing on Emperor you will definitely need more than warriors so you have two choices. First,research WHL yourself and hook up only your strategic resource and do some chopping at that city to quickly put some units out, then proceed onto your REX, or.......and this is my preferred choice (when possible), place your 3rd city as your strategic source city (not library city) so that a river connects it, or settle directly on top of it.

The river is obviously best because it lets you save a good tile and simply bring your workers along and rapidly chop out 4-5 units. But if you're stubborn like me, and really want to save turns in getting to Currency (and on Emperor your penalized more so you need it worse) then you'll just suck it up and settle on top of it and then chop em out.
 
Hah, I played my game out and recorded a playthrough with several mistakes (not really managing my workers well, and forgetting to trade alphabet, also not chopping anything and skipping the GLH), though I ended up with 11 cities (all I had room for) and Currency by 650 BC.

Video coming up soon, Cathy is a pure rex monster :D

Catherine rex video as promised, Immortal difficulty and 11 cities at 650 BC:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5uFZ59Cyvh8

I would have also normally built the GLH, but in this game I simply wanted to see how fast I could rex with CRE + IMP, and it is a very powerful combination.
 
So how far is too far when claiming land in the early game? The decision is easy when there are natural chokepoints, but what if the terrain between you and the AI(s) is wide open and placing enough blocking cities would kill your economy? What would be a reasonable distance to claim prime sites realizing the AI will end-run around you can claim anything left over? [Settings: Noble, Standard]
Playing Noble Standard, at least ten cities if not more. And you can go pretty much as far as you want. If there's a good spot, grab it. The whole trick to a successful REX is to have lots of workers. Don't skimp on them. It won't benefit you in the long run. It's pretty much impossible to break your economy at this level. Just build lots of libraries and hire scientists. It's not important if the slider gets down below 50%. Even below 10%.

I disagree completely with the claim that a good REXing capital has lots of cottages. No it doesn't. It has plenty of productive power in food and hammers to pump out those workers and settlers. A good cottage capital is, of course, good for research. But not for REXing.
 
I disagree completely with the claim that a good REXing capital has lots of cottages. No it doesn't. It has plenty of productive power in food and hammers to pump out those workers and settlers. A good cottage capital is, of course, good for research. But not for REXing.

Yes, a good rexing capital has as much production as possible. With IMP I was able to run a 5 pop city with a Cow, Pig and Horses with those three tiles plus two Scientist specialists very quickly, just check the video above.

You dont run a cottage economy, you run food + hammers with Wealth, and later on workshops + windmills as required.
 
Playing Noble Standard, at least ten cities if not more.

It's also possible to do get 10 cities by 1000-800 BC range on Emperor and still Research up to CS by 1AD.......and still grab Asthetics, Literature, TGL/NE, and Drama for a free GA and golden age, bulb Philo, switch to caste/pacifism/religion and generate 2 additional GS during your GA to bulb part of Edu and Liberalism (all around 500 AD).

REX and bubling towards Liberalism is pretty powerful.
 
It's also possible to do get 10 cities by 1000-800 BC range on Emperor and still Research up to CS by 1AD.......and still grab Asthetics, Literature, TGL/NE, and Drama for a free GA and golden age, bulb Philo, switch to caste/pacifism/religion and generate 2 additional GS during your GA to bulb part of Edu and Liberalism (all around 500 AD).

REX and bubling towards Liberalism is pretty powerful.

Its possible on Immortal, maybe even Deity too.
 
Edit:

Lol, I wrote the wrong thing. I thought you said its IMPOSSIBLE ;) It might be possible but certainly not the norm. You'd need an abusively good starting position (to include surroundings) and some backwards AI. Immortal/Deity for me is one of those levels where its almost always the best idea to have a small empire and bulb towards Lib/Nat so you can have a 1000AD draft/whip/upgrade war and bring your empire up to 15-20 cities at which point you can use any economy and shoot for any vic you want.
 
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