How to rush with axes

[johncross21]

I usually spend some time building three or four cities then attack with axes and catapults when I've run out of land and the economies stabilised

some veterans here seem to start earlier and swear by an early axe rush

how is it done ?

do you wait for cats or just send in your axes against warriors

how many units do you start with and what is your war objective (would you expect to take/raze several cities or just one or two)

does the same strategy work with BTS ?

 

[slobberinbear]

some veterans here seem to start earlier and swear by an early axe rush

how is it done ?

You must work on your search-fu, grasshopper.

The Early Rush

 

[johncross21]

you've been really helpful. thanks

 

[futurehermit]

a very early rush depends on the existence of copper and the proximity of your nearest neighbour. if you don't have copper you can consider going IW immediatelly after BW if you have a really close neighbour.

however, in most standard situations i find you will not have a close enough neighbour. and by close i mean quite close. in these situations attacking would put a lot of strain on your economy, even assuming you win. this is because your economy is minimal and your expenses are high due to distance maintenance. you also will likely not have currency and col this early.

in most circumstances, especially in bts, i find it is better to develop your economy, settle the available land, and then (assuming you are not playing emperor+) shoot for some kind of tech edge and then attack.

many civs are also resistant to early rushes (protective, creative, early UU/UB, aggressive and has lots of troops, etc.). these civs are usually easier to attack mid-to-late-game once their advantages fade.

if you DO have a close neighbour and copper though you need to build 1-2 cities, get the copper online, and then whip/build axes and attack. make sure you bring enough axes to get the job done, however. and realize that you don't need to wipe out your opponent on the first war. if you can take their capital and 1-2 other cities, thus crippling them, you can finish them at your leisure later. remember that your economy is also important, although land is ultimately power.

you need to expand consistently at a rate that your economy can support. once you get currency and col you can expand much more quickly, especially if you are conquering mature cottages/commerce tiles.

 

[cabert]

One more thing to remember is that the rush is mostly vanilla - warlords. I have yet to do a useful rush in BtS.

 

[futurehermit]

yeah, they've definitely responded to people's concern that the early rush is the only way. now in bts a builder-type approach is usually the best way to go early (although you have to watch diplomacy to avoid being attacked). this likely makes a lot of people happy and frankly i don't mind it either. now the early game is about maximizing economy. although hopefully the patch will correct the AI's teching ability so that out-teching then attacking isn't such a powerful approach either.

 

[xanadux]

I've been playing BTS emperor, and I don't worry much about a military tech lead to attack. I've been developing 3-4 cities, building an army of axes while I wait to research alphabet. As soon as early target is identified, they get all the espionage points. There is usually enough EPs built up to drop defenses of 2 cities. Staying ahead in tech pre-civil service is not so important ... getting the land to build a strong economy and having enough military to survive has been my strategy lately. But it is important not to get caught by AI macemen with no counter.

 

[futurehermit]

the thing about emperor+ is that it is still largely the case that the ai will spread fast enough that someone is going to be close enough that you can hit them with axes. on monarch- that is not often the case which means that going after tech is better off. on higher levels it will also be harder to get a tech edge but on monarch- it is easier to do and a more powerful strat given the difficulties inherent in attacking early (lots of civs have early advantages, aggressors mass units early but fall behind on tech later, civs are not close enough to you meaning high distance penalties, etc.)

 

[gettingfat]

One thing I want to add is in BtS we frequently draw highly forested start locations. It's not rare to see over 15 forests, which means free 300+ hammers pre-mathematic. After enough experiments I believe it's simply unproductive to keep these forests till national park is available. These forests are better used for REX, wonder building, or early rush. Since with this type of start you're going to get BW quick and you'll know if copper is available nearby, if this happens and also see a close neighbour. A lot of time it's not a bad idea to go for an early rush. An AI's capital is worth more than two cities. Sometimes I even move my capital there once the war is over.

A bit of my experience: In this scenario, build two workers for speeding up the chopping. Don't save the trees if you make up your mind. Don't switch back to builder mode too early. Be committed. You need a minimum of 2 axes for every archer defender on flat land tile and 3 axes if the target city is on hill, plus a few for insurance. If possible, attack the capital first, raze the others and don't keep more than one non-capital city. If you see archers escorting a settler out, let them leave the cultural border before you declare war so they have no chance of returning for reinforcement. And when you promote your units that survive the first battle, remember to get a medic I unit.

 

[futurehermit]

if you have a close neighbour
if you have copper/iron/early horse-UU

rush

if not, develop your economy, settle the land, attack in medieval

 

[vicawoo]

It's easy to do, just follow these steps:

1. Cut a hole in a box.
2. Put your junk in that box.
3. Make her open the box.

And that's the way you do it.

 

[mice]

One more thing to remember is that the rush is mostly vanilla - warlords. I have yet to do a useful rush in BtS.

Hi Cabert. Long time no see a post from.

Yes The axe rush is problematic in BTS. The hammer and time outlay makes it hard to get a good return.

In Stalin's cosmonauts , one player rushed with three archers on Prince to take the capital.

Maybe dog soldier rush is a good idea. For the other civs, it's very often not it seems.

 

[cabert]

Hi Cabert. Long time no see a post from.

Yes The axe rush is problematic in BTS. The hammer and time outlay makes it hard to get a good return.

In Stalin's cosmonauts , one player rushed with three archers on Prince to take the capital.

Maybe dog soldier rush is a good idea. For the other civs, it's very often not it seems.

Prince...
Hum, it's been a while since I played Prince

 

[zenspiderz]

Prince...
Hum, it's been a while since I played Prince

On prince you can do a warrior rush with 3 warriors take a rival capital (his only city) giving you one additional city and an eliminated rival. Ahhh those were the days... monarch onwards AI start with archers....

 

[Kiershar]

When playing online I almost always rush, but since BTS came out it seem that going for a big early war really slow your economy at long term especially since catapults costs more and die easy. Much more difficult to get a good return on the investment with catapults now and in many situation you could have been better off just building non-siege troops.

For this reason now I focus on building the economy right away, going for Monarchy as soon as I have all the basic ressource hooking tech while pumping out settlers and workers from capital until I switch to hereditary rules. Then I aim straight for bureaucracy while I stack cheap troops in all city, have 1.5/2 workers per city improving and cottaging.

I usually only consider war after bureaucracy, and if I do war before it is just to clear the way for more land or pillage with a couple unit. I really only go conquering after gunpowder, military science and steel. Kinda make sense since the expansion is named 'Beyond The Sword'. They did a good job at nerfing catapults, but now they are too easy to counter and nearly useless when using on large scale as seen in Warlords.

 

[slobberinbear]

It's easy to do, just follow these steps:

1. Cut a hole in a box.
2. Put your junk in that box.
3. Make her open the box.

And that's the way you do it.

sing it, Justin

 

[madscientist]

I have not had any problems rushing in BTS compared with Warlords.

Yesterday while playing Ghandi I was able to use an axe-rush on Mansa Musa and his UU. If the game pacifist can rush the AI with the best early defensive unit, I think it can be performed anytime.

The game was on Monarch difficulty, however I got lucky and got the random event that gave me the free cover upgrade on melees. Still I had brought an excess of axemen and it would have worked anyway with the cover promotions.

 

[Kiershar]

you need to expand consistently at a rate that your economy can support. once you get currency and col you can expand much more quickly, especially if you are conquering mature cottages/commerce tiles.

In my opinion currency and CoL are not the techs that bring in the real money. I found out that expanding relentlessly right away and having workers follow up by quickly improving food source and cottaging up will not crash your economy and have your money curve go exponential much earlier.
Once you get hereditary rules, everything go smoothly if you have workers and garrisons properly managed.

So my say is, the tech that bring in the money is Pottery and Monarchy! Currency gives what, 6 gold per turn in a big early empire? And Courthouse provide so little return compared to other investment you could be making. (unless you are organized). I'd rather run a civ at +40 at 30% than +50 at 80%. The first one has much more potential!

 

[madscientist]

In my opinion currency and CoL are not the techs that bring in the real money. I found out that expanding relentlessly right away and having workers follow up by quickly improving food source and cottaging up will not crash your economy and have your money curve will go exponential much earlier.
Once you get hereditary rules, everything go smoothly if you have workers and garrisons properly managed.

So my say is, the tech that bring in the money is Pottery and Monarchy! Currency gives what, 6 gold per turn in a big early empire? And Courthouse provide so little return compared to other investment you could be making. (unless you are organized). I'd rather run a civ at +40 @ 30% than +50 at 80%. The first one has much more potential!

Currency allows the extra trade route right off the bat. That's minimum 1 commerce per city, 2 if you have open borders. Currency allows you to trade a resource for gold. It also, most importantly, trade an older tech to an AI for cash (there are always AIs looking for meditation and polytheism).

COL gets the courthouses, which add up especially the further you settle cities from the capital. Plus the espionage points which allow a spy to steal some AIs treasury.

Pottery and cottages are very important, I agree and you should have before COL or Currency. Monarchy is great but not as good for the economy. You have to built and maintain all those units that are giving you happiness, and THAT costs gold too. Building units for war and paying for them is one thing, building units for garrison/happiness is another.

 

[Kiershar]

Currency allows the extra trade route right off the bat. That's minimum 1 commerce per city, 2 if you have open borders. Currency allows you to trade a resource for gold. It also, most importantly, trade an older tech to an AI for cash (there are always AIs looking for meditation and polytheism).

That is, like i wrote, about 6 commerce per turn in an early empire. Yes it's a good tech but not one that will save you or one to get before Civil Service.

COL gets the courthouses, which add up especially the further you settle cities from the capital. Plus the espionage points which allow a spy to steal some AIs treasury.

The hammers invested in courthouse I would have them invested towards more settlers, workers, garrisons, library, granaries... Anything that has MORE potential than 3-4 commerce per city + 2 spy points. My point : Courthouse = Linear growth, Anything else = Exponential growth

Pottery and cottages are very important, I agree and you should have before COL or Currency. Monarchy is great but not as good for the economy. You have to built and maintain all those units that are giving you happiness, and THAT costs gold too. Building units for war and paying for them is one thing, building units for garrison/happiness is another.

Upkeep amount to ~0.4 gpt/unit i believe, much less early on. For working one more tile (Usually a return of 4-5 hammer, commerce or food) and having much more power (Wich you can use to extort money from other civ) that is a mighty good investment.