How to use Godess of Springtime?

[Ninal]

Hello all,

I was re-reading @crdvis16 's report on Indonesia:
https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/indonesia.644027/

I haven't been succesfull yet with Indonesia but more importantly I have never experienced any succes with Godess of Springtime. I wonder if godess of springtime isn't even used by Indonesia with all her extra plantations than how/when is Godess of Springtime being used?

The pantheon reads:
+2 gold and +1 food from plantations
+3 faith from markets.

My limited experience with this Pantheon:
- It suits itself to wide play
- Should be stronger with Indonesia (extra plantations) and Arabia (needs to build bazars anyways)
- It seems hard to found a religion with it
- I normally have other building priorities than early markets. Making the "detour" to get markets everywhere painfull.
- It lacks culture, science or production (but the production is mostly compensated for by the extra gold).

In general the pantheon seems weak at founding, weak in culture and only moderately usefull if you really really need some extra gold. I am really curious how more experienced players use this pantheon.

- In which situatiuon do you take Godess of Springtime?
- What does this Pantheon do for you that other pantheons do worse?
- Does it have special synergies with some of the policy trees or some of the Civs?

 

[amateurgamer88]

Goddess of Springtime is an interesting pantheon that doesn't give you a lot of flexibility regarding what you go for. You must go for Markets immediately or you won't find a religion at all. Generally, I'd go for Shrine first and Market second. As you noted, this pantheon is weak in culture so it shines with Progress where completing buildings give you culture. You want to use the extra gold to invest in buildings and rely on solid infrastructure to get ahead. Ideally, you go quite wide so your Shrines and Markets will get where you need to. I know one of my mistakes before was going for Calendar when it doesn't help me find a religion at all.

Compared to other pantheons, this one can potentially give you a lot of gold. This is especially true for Indonesia but you need to get plantations first and that can take time. Sadly, I don't take this that often but I do intend on trying it out with Indonesia in a future game when I get a chance.

 

[Stalker0]

I think it’s best for market or trade focused civs. Arabia, ottomans, Morocco are all examples.

since these civs prioritize the trade tech anyway you can make springtime work.

Any new city then should prioritize market over shrine imo.

Springtime has a very strong faith base if you follow the proper market path, so they can spread and get religious buildings up a bit quicker than most pantheons...the trick is getting the markets early enough to allow founding.

Its definitely a niche pantheon, and one you have to plan for, you don’t just “get”

 

[LifeOfBrian]

I strongly dislike this pantheon, but if I were to use it, it'd be when my starting luxury is Tobacco, since that gives faith from its monopoly.

 

[andersw]

When you choose a pantheon you have to consider if you want to found or not, to found a religion is very strong imo and this is a pantheon that not only require a building, its a second tech lvl building which have as low priority as I can afford, I tend to build my first market roughly somewhere after city 5 have settled.
So you need a worker, calendar tech, time to improve plantation, the trade tech and build a market to have the benefits.
There a pantheons that provide faith (+ something else) from the get go without building anything.
I consider this a bad pantheon that provides low yields too late and is difficult to found with.

Edit: "- In which situatiuon do you take Godess of Springtime?"
No situations, I don't take it.

 

[Stalker0]

I decided to put my money where my mouth is and do a run of my idea to see how it fares.

I played as Ottomans, with a silk start (Immortal Difficulty). I put Pottery -> Trapping -> Trade, then circled back to get Calendar. I also went Progress.

So the idea was to get a very early caravan just as my 2nd city founds (Monument, Shrine, Granary until Settler is ready, Settler, finish Granary, Caravan), use the TR to both get my 2nd city up and running in quick order while also milking the Ottoman bonus. Meanwhile, I would start my markets up and go from there.

So the result?

1) I got my Pantheon on Turn 43, and would have founded on Turn 106...which is far too late on Immortal. And this was me really focusing on markets early, even ignoring monuments in some of my cities in order to push markets/shrines quicker. So I feel confident saying that Springtime is a "Tradition Only religion". That doesn't mean it is impossible to found on with Progress, its just you would have to get a faith natural wonder, early friendship with a faith CS, etc to give you the boost. Realistically you should be going Tradition 2 for the +3 faith to make a founding work.

On the flipside, springtime might be a good "roll over" pantheon (meaning your intention is to get another religion). You build up a lot of gold and food early for infrastructure, stockpile a big faith pool....and then once you get a new religion you overwrite the old. Miiiiiiight be viable.

2) The early caravan play actually worked out well. It allowed my 2nd city to get to 4 people very quickly, so it started settler production (and with a +3 boost due to the +6 TR). So even though my 3rd city was delayed a bit, I was able to settle my 4th quicker than I would normally. Its an interesting concept.

3) I will say that with Springtime you have gold gold gold. So I was able to rush a lot of stuff early.

4) My biggest disappointment (which I am calling BS on the civ gods!!!). A barb camp appeared near one of my cities, and on that exact same turn 2 barbs appeared out of nowhere, and snipped my caravan before I could react! (I was sooooooo mad!). So I lost out on my first big culture push....which lead to...

5) With this build, I knew my usual wonders were out, but this tech path gives me a beeline to the Great Library so I decided to give it a go. However, because I lost the caravan I didn't have enough culture, and the wonder was taken before I even had enough policies to try. I wonder if my TR had finished if I would have been able to make it work. Another scenario where a Tradition style play would have been preferable perhaps.

6) This was actually my 3rd attempt at the build, and the reason was....the AI took springtime the first two times! This is an important consideration, I am beeling a tech path for Springtime, and if you don't get it, the fall back might be tough.


So I am going to try this idea a few more times, both seeing if my finished caravan can snag me the GL, and switching to a Tradition start to see how that fares.

EDIT: BTw, I think the Civ gods are angry at me for my curse. I have now restarted 22 times (and counting) and still haven't gotten a plantation start

 

[Stalker0]

Alright finally got a forest planation start. Yep, I know forests are hard, but at the same time it really helped my early game.

This time I went tradition. I founded on Turn 101....which is on the absolute edge of founding on Immortal. I also completed my TR this time, and even with it (and working my artist slot) I still need a turn or two to get the needed culture. But....I lost the GL by 6 turns

So I'm not sure this build is going to work out. It just doesn't feel like it has a lot going for it, even when you do make it work.

 

[Ninal]

Thanks for the replies guys. Super awesome that you actually went out and experimented with Springime @Stalker0 !

Unfortunately it seems there aren't many succes-stories to share so far. I am so accustomed to Vox Populi being nearly perfectly-balanced that I am still expecting someone to step up and defend Goddes of Springtime and tell me when it really shines.

So far it seems as if you have to jump through a lot of hoops to acchieve some sort of benefit. But when you get there the benefit is underwhelming at best. I have actively played and enjoyed pretty much all pantheons except for this one and the Tundra one.

 

[amateurgamer88]

Below is my first and likely only attempt for this Pantheon. It's such a pain to go for and it's certainly difficult to work with. I think the best luxuries to have is Spices as Markets boost the luxury even when it's unimproved. Now, I know I could probably optimize certain decisions along the way. However, it's way too difficult overall as you need a lot of things go your way and just isn't that viable on higher difficulties (Immortal or higher). Anyways, you can watch it (though it has no commentary) and make your own judgement. I didn't find and was projected to get a religion on Turn 101 with Progress.

 

[pineappledan]

Hmm. Is there a fix?
Springtime used to give on plantations, but only 2 on markets. Would the pantheon be more situationally viable if it gave 21 on plantations and only 22 on markets? Then you need to rush calendar, but you could get 4-6 per city and catch up.

It’s a really late-blooming pantheon with both of its bonuses on the 2nd level of ancient techs, so it probably needs to be especially strong, or really shine as a “roll-over” pantheon for non-founders

 

[Stalker0]

Hmm. Is there a fix?
Springtime used to give on plantations, but only 2 on markets. Would the pantheon be more situationally viable if it gave 21 on plantations and only 22 on markets? Then you need to rush calendar, but you could get 4-6 per city and catch up.

It’s a really late-blooming pantheon with both of its bonuses on the 2nd level of ancient techs, so it probably needs to be especially strong, or really shine as a “roll-over” pantheon for non-founders

Maybe just go with a straight +4 faith on markets. I don't mind the late blooming niche but I don't know if it pays for itself enough to catch up with other pantheons.

 

[amateurgamer88]

A +4 Faith should be good enough. At the moment, the to ratio of a Market isn't as good as a shrine. With 4 Faith, you can go Market before Shrine and make use of the Gold sooner. At least, I'd like to test +4 Faith before making any conclusions.

 

[Ninal]

It’s a really late-blooming pantheon with both of its bonuses on the 2nd level of ancient techs, so it probably needs to be especially strong, or really shine as a “roll-over” pantheon for non-founders

I agree. As it is now you take a huge risk in not getting a religion by taking something as slow as Godess of Springtime. The resulting "payoff" seems rather unimpressive. So either increase the pay-off like @Stalker0 suggests or focus more faith on plantations so that you actually have a shot at a religion.

 

[CrazyG]

I must say this is perhaps my least used pantheon.

A pantheon requiring a single tech from the second tier is one thing, but requiring two really burdens you (especially since you have no science in this pantheon). Your first 5 techs are basically pre-determined, and you need to start on this path before you even get to choose the pantheon. YOu just have such a lack of flexibility for very little pay off in my opinion. I think it used to give culture on plantations instead of food, which I preferred. A lot of plantation starts are low production with decent food.

 

[Ninal]

It seems like pretty much everyone agrees this pantheon is tricky to use and doesn't give a large enough reward for the risks you are taking. Is a buff still posible? And if yes... what would a reasonable buff look like?

Personally I would prefer that the plantations get something extra so that this actually becomes a viable pantheon when you do start with a lot of plantations. Either give it even more Gold per plantation (from 2 to 4) to stay within the theme or give it some other yield?

 

[azum4roll]

What if it becomes +21 from plantations and +3+1 from markets?

 

[Stalker0]

What if it becomes +21 from plantations and +3+1 from markets?

The reason I think +4 faith on markets is better is because I can rush markets, and hopefully get enough faith to found. Meanwhile I backtrack to calendar and then start filling in my plantations. Otherwise you need both trade and calendar to make the full faith impact and I think that is too hard.

 

[Ninal]

I actually like your idea @azum4roll. It is only a tiny buff but it would enable I think it would be nice to have a pantheon that really improves plantations and might still allow you to found? So far I think Goddess of Springtime failed at that.

@Stalker0
Why do you think faith on markets is better than faith on plantations? Everytime I have a plantation-rich start I feel like I don't have a fitting pantheon. Do you think the small increase from 3 to 4 faith on markets is enough to make it an interesting and viable pantheon?

 

[Stalker0]

I actually like your idea @azum4roll. It is only a tiny buff but it would enable I think it would be nice to have a pantheon that really improves plantations and might still allow you to found? So far I think Goddess of Springtime failed at that.

@Stalker0
Why do you think faith on markets is better than faith on plantations? Everytime I have a plantation-rich start I feel like I don't have a fitting pantheon. Do you think the small increase from 3 to 4 faith on markets is enough to make it an interesting and viable pantheon?

So the issue right now is that in order to make Springtime effective you have to do 4 things:

1) Get Trade
2) Build Markets
3) Get Calendar
4) Build Plantations.

That is just too much to do early on. So this pantheon is actually a "2 part pantheon"....you gain power from either markets or plantations first, and then follow up with the other. So my idea was to focus on the markets first. They in theory give you the faith you need to found, while you are shoring up your plantations. Than as your plantations come online you reap the gold and food benefits. Personally having played springtime recently, the gold and food benefits are actually pretty solid, you just don't have enough faith to really make it work.

If you give the plantations a little bit of faith...you can try to go plantation heavy early and found with them, but its going to be very tough. Meanwhile, once you get to markets the faith benefit won't be as strong. So that is why I was focusing on the market side.

 

[pineappledan]

I think that’s why you should move all the faith onto the plantation and give market some other yield(s). As ninal says, with a plantation-heavy starting location, if you want to use the plantation pantheon then you have to rush Trade/Markets right now, or you’ll never found. If you have a great plantation start then you want to rush Calendar, but the plantation pantheon pulls you to another tech.

the current springtime pantheon puts you into a perpetual feeling of sour grapes.