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How to wage an effective war with a democratic government:

Discussion in 'Civ3 Strategy Articles' started by Moonsinger, May 17, 2002.

  1. Moonsinger

    Moonsinger Settler Retired Moderator

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    I assume that your civ has Democracy. This is a draft of my war strategy under a democratic government. So far, it has worked very well for me at all levels (including at Deity level). It works best for a Comericial civ, but it will do well for any civ. I'm not sure if it will work for a small or standard map since I have never played any game smaller than a large map.

    1. In all the game that I have played so far, I have always switched to Democracy as soon as I discovered it.

    2. I always perform micromanagement during and after I emerge from Anarchy to make sure my citizens in all cities are happy or content. If they are unhappy, I will convert them to entertainer. For some city, some of my citizens may be starving to dead because there aren't enough food to support everyone. That's ok. They may be starving to dead but they die with a smile on their face.:)

    3. By now, I normally control at least 3 luxuries and a continent. I normally set science and happiness to zero and the all my income to buy market and whatever necessary for all my cities.

    4. At this point, I would normally make at least 1000 gold per turns. Moreover, I would normally have a leader standing by to rush the Adam Smith Trading company. At Deity level, sometimes I have to take over that Wonder from the AI. It's good to have the Adam Smith Wonder, but if I don't have it, It's not the end of the world. By the end of the Middle Ages, my civ would normally generate 3000+ gold each turn (about 500 less golds for none comercial civ)....However, I am afraid that life is not always that simple. Sometimes, we have to fight for what is rightfully ours, so for the remainding of this post, let's see how we can wage an effective war with a democratic government.

    By the time I discover Magnetism, I would have trade the world maps with all the civs and pretty much know where all the resources are, especially luxury resource. I immediately build a dozen galleon and divide them into two groups, no escort is necessary. Since everyone is just recently discover Magnetism, there is no warships to worry about. I create two tash forces of 6 galleons each. I load them up with 12 of my best defenders (usually pikemen), 11 of my best fast units (usually knight or cavalry), and one settler. Note: If I have more money, I will throw in a couple more ships with defenders or creating another taskforce. Each of my task force will immediately set sail for those remoted continents wherever the luxury is located at.:)

    "To secure ourselves against defeat lies in our own hands, but the opportunity of defeating the enemy is provided by the enemy himself. Thus the good fighter is able to secure himself against defeat, but can not make certain of defeating the enemy." - Sun Tzu Art of War.

    When my task forces are in possition, I will immediately land my troops right next to those cities with luxury resource. Of course, the enemy will ask me to leave or to declare war.;) What are they thinking? I don't travel half way around the world so that I can just home.;) Of course, I declare war. Since most of the enemy cities are depend with 2 or 3 defenders and 1 offensive unit, they are no match for my invasion force. I immediately raze that city (which generated some nice slave workers), use my settler and build a city right on the same spot. I immediately fortified all my troop inside, dig a moat around it, rush a citywall during the first turn (then a barrack, and a harbor after that, ...then the temple). Note: I rush build eveything in this city at every turn.

    5. By now, the enemy has mobilized his force against me. He probably also gets a few of his buddies to sign a mutual protection pact and to declare war against me too. In fact, the whole world would be at war against me at this point. That's ok, the more war the better.:)

    6. Since I was the one who start the war, my democratic citizens probably start complaining by now. Oh well, it could have been worst. At least they are not religious fanatics. IMO, democratic fanatics are lot easier to deal than the religious fanatics.;) Anyway, I would do micromanagement every three or four turns to make sure that they are happy. If they are unhappy about the war or whatever, I will converse them to entertainer. For some city, some of my citizens may be starving to dead because there aren't enough food to support everyone and to keep everyone happy. They may be starving to dead but they die with a smile on their face.:) I would normally repeat this step every three turn to make sure that my citizens are happy.

    7. As Sun Tzu said "the opportunity of defeating the enemy is provided by the enemy himself". Turn after turn, my enemy will try to retake those luxury resource and they will die trying. I only send out my knights or cavalries to finish off the wounded attackers. With 3000+ golds that my civ continue to produce (I always set happiness and research to zero when I'm at war), I continue rush new units every turn at my remoted outpost. Now, is a good time to rush some cannon as well. After a while, the enemy will stop attacking, it's also a good indication that they are running out of troops, now is a good time to defeat them.

    8. I will only take cities that I can be able to hold. If not, I will burn them to the ground. Those extra slave workers are so nice. Note: Just make sure that you don't loose any city back to the AI. If you loose a city, your people will be very very very unhappy and some of your cities may decide to switch side. After about 20 turns, try to communicate with them to see if they are willing to sign a peace treaty.

    9. Signing Peace Treaty: the moment I know that he is willing to talk, I will start a massive offense and try to take as many cities away from him as I can during that same turn, call him up and sign the peace treaty with him. Don't forget to ask him for the worldmap, techs, towns, and all his gold. Even if I have to give him something in order for him to sign a peace treaty, it's still a victory for me. My original mission is to secure resource; anything else is just a bonus on top that.

    In summary: It's so easy to wage war while maintaining a democratic government. At once time, I even at war with the same civ for more than 40 consecutive turns without any problem. The key is to winning is to control all luxuries, only take what you can keep, and be willing to let your people starve to dead. Just remember, they may be starving to dead, but they always die with a smile. After you discover railroad, starvation may not be a problem after that.:)
     
  2. MrBiggBoy

    MrBiggBoy High Admiral

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    Great Ideas! (maybe you should put Universal Suffrage and Police Stations helps too)

    im gonna go try your strat rite now!!!!!!!:)
     
  3. Erik Mesoy

    Erik Mesoy Core Tester / Intern

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    Um, I pressed Ctrl-alt-tab-f12-pgdn-del-esc-break-shift-home. Nothing happened. Wheres that civfanatics website?

    (I DO have a sense of humor)
     
  4. MrBiggBoy

    MrBiggBoy High Admiral

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    I normally don't use Democracy in a war situation. I prefer to use Republic, with Universal Suffrage. With this, there is almost NO war weariness. Try it!!:)


    P.S. I changed my sig for you!:)
     
  5. Moonsinger

    Moonsinger Settler Retired Moderator

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    Democracy is the best! I have tried the Republic before and it isn't powerful as Democracy. With 3000+ golds each turn, I could buy almost anything I want or build anything I want in one turn (not including Wonder). In my current game, I have been at war with the English, the American, and the Rusian for over 60 consecutive turns already - no problem. Half of my citizens are entertainers and I have no temples or catherals - no problem. I normally build a temple to expand my boundary and sell it 4 turns later to avoid culture victory.
     
  6. Bamspeedy

    Bamspeedy We'll dig up the road!

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    Democracy is better than Republic in Peace time, but not in war IMHO. There isn't a very big difference in corruption between Republic and Democracy (your cities close to the capital will have almost 0% corruption, far flung cities will have 95% corruption in any government). What really makes the difference between any government is the middle range cities. And with you having so many entertainers, think of all the potential money and shields you are losing! If half of your population is entertainers, then your better off with Monarchy. With monarchy since you have 0 war weariness, you won't lose any production at all. Sure, it has half the gold as Republic or Democracy, but you're losing half of your gold anyways because of all the entertainers! Plus in Monarchy, you get alot of free units.

    The only way I see this working is if all your cities are size 35+, so that all those citizens (the extra people you have that wouldn't be able to work a tile, anyways) are entertainers, rather than taxmen or scientist. But then you are losing out on those specialists (corruption immune) also.
     
  7. MrBiggBoy

    MrBiggBoy High Admiral

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    Interesting post. I'd like to see a 60 turn war in Democracy with no temples or cathedrals. Personally, I either use Republic or Monarchy. my first game I used democracy in war, and it was a VERY bad experience. I play emperor, and I will only use monarchy or republic.
     
  8. Moonsinger

    Moonsinger Settler Retired Moderator

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    I think it has something to do with loosing the war and the mixing of civs. I'm always advancing my troops very slowly and I'm razing most cities on my path. So far, my own citizens are doing ok after 20, 30, 40, or 60 turns of war. I mean the citizen of my own civs are doing fine; if I have a city of mix civ, those cities are exetremely unhappy. If this happen, I will cut off their food suplies and killing all of them off except 1 ... eventually those cities will grow back with my own civ.:)

    I don't like to switch the government in time of war because Anarchy is really bad for business and it could last forver.:( Note: After 20 turns of war, I may allocate 30% of income toward happiness. After 30 turns of war, I will allocate 50% of income toward happiness to compensate for any unhappiness. In the worst case, with 50% of income lost toward happiness, my civ is still able to make at least 1000+ golds. Of course, I will try anything to avoid a long war, but in the worst case, a long war is very doable with Democracy.
     
  9. Sullla

    Sullla Patrician Roman Dictator

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    I'm really surprised that you are seeing these results; fighting a war in democracy against even 1 opponent for longer than 20 turns really causes serious war weariness. Fighting against multiple civs with no temples/cathedrals while razing most cities taken... I'd expect that that would seriously send your civ into disorder.

    I can see this working, but as Bamspeedy said, you must have to hire a LOT of entertainers. If citites stay at size 12 or lower with a marketplace and all luxuries, you probably can stay at war forever in a democracy. But I also think that just going to republic would make things easier; a republic with 8 luxuries can go forever without hiring entertainers. The corruption difference between republic and democracy is not very significant.

    And 3000g/turn in the Middle Ages? You have to be on a Huge map to get that kind of income. I don't think this would be as effective on smaller maps simply because you lack the income to rush an entire army in far-flung areas.

    Overall though, I like the idea, and this is one of the few cases I have found where someone prefers the commercial attribute to others. :)
     
  10. Lawrence

    Lawrence Chieftain

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    It is possible to get limited war weariness.

    The points:
    1. Thou shalt not let enemy enter your territory and stay for 1 turn or more.
    2. Thou shalt not lose cities.
    3. Thou shalt manage to lose as little units as you can.
    4. Thou shalt not have enemy nationals in your country.
    ( Well, I have some doubt for this, don't know if it counts but it SEEMS to count )

    In this way you can get 40+ turns with limited war weariness.
     
  11. Lawrence

    Lawrence Chieftain

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    And I'm somebody who like to go war in a democratic government. Basically, it was because that I do not like change government for two times which will take an exorbitant 12 turns. And since my goal was not to conquest the world, democracy was always enough for me to take the majority of one opponent before the war weariness goes too high to control.

    To wage a democratic war your efforts, IMHO, should be used in preparation. Enough troops and good position can get the war much faster.
     
  12. Bamspeedy

    Bamspeedy We'll dig up the road!

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    Yes, I agree this is the best way for a democratic war. Instead of using all that money to rush buy a few units every turn to continue the war, build or buy all the units you will need before the war and set the units up just outside the enemy's border, THEN declare war. If you have enough units before the war starts, the war should not last longer than 20 turns.

    In monarchy with no war-weariness you could keep straggling units into the war, gradually wearing down your enemy (war of attrition), but in Democracy you need STACKS of units prior to the war starting.
     
  13. Moonsinger

    Moonsinger Settler Retired Moderator

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    Yup! :goodjob: Moreover, that would be my main reason to pack as much defenders as possible. And of course, I always pack along a couple settlers in my invasion force. I rarely capture enemy city unless I'm sure I can completely wipe them out within a few turn. I always refer to raze the enemy cities and rebuild them from scatch. It's safer, faster, and happier that way. Plus I can start rushing improvement right away.

    On #4, set up a good defensive possition and wait for your enemy to retalliate. That give them a chance to throw everything they have at us. After they loose most of their force trying to take back what is rightfully ours, we can take the rest of their cities like taking candy from the baby.:)
    "To secure ourselves against defeat lies in our own hands, but the opportunity of defeating the enemy is provided by the enemy himself."
     
  14. Moonsinger

    Moonsinger Settler Retired Moderator

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    Me too, I love a democratic government. Even if I'm playing a religious civ, I would never want to change government. I like to play a religious civ so that I can purchase temple and catheral at a cheap price. Other than that, once I get democracry, I would never want to change to anything else.

    I like to conquest the world and democracy is just perfect for that. If I am a democratic government, chances are most of the AIs are also democratic too. Therefore, everyone wants to end the war as quickly as they can. After 20 turns or so, I always seek peace to regroup and to reposition my troops before I declare war again. Since the peace treaty is signed as "peace until war is declared", I'm not breaking any treaty at all if I want to declare war again next turn. Morever, whenever peace is signed, I always ask them to turn over a couple of their towns; therefore, I can conquer extra towns without firing any shot.:)
     
  15. Moonsinger

    Moonsinger Settler Retired Moderator

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    Exactly, I buy new units on the front line to reinforce the one that I just lost or just to reinforce my possition. Other than that I always try to save as much money as possible just in case something unexpected may pop up.
     
  16. Bamspeedy

    Bamspeedy We'll dig up the road!

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    It's not really 'until war is declared'. I know that's what it says, but the peace treaty still lasts for 20 turns. Go to a civ you just signed peace with and click on 'active'. There should be (20) besides the peace treaty. Do you ever have problems winning by UN?
     
  17. Moonsinger

    Moonsinger Settler Retired Moderator

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    No wonder why I got only 1 vote at the UN election.:( :cry:
     
  18. Zachriel

    Zachriel Kaiser

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    That's fine as long as you want to be known as Moonsinger, the destroyer, or Moonsinger, the murderer of millions, or Moonsinger, the slaughterer of children, the destroyer of dreams.

    Use your might for right. Don't take the so-called easy way.
     
  19. Shabbaman

    Shabbaman rebuffing the rebels

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    I think you're right, but still, after 20 turns you have to declare war again, or the treaty will be silent prolonged. This is the same for trade treaties and so on. I think this means that after 20 turns, you can declare war (by renegotiating peace, and cancelling the agreement) without damage to your reputation.
     
  20. dikwhit

    dikwhit Chieftain

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    Some of you advocate waging war in a democracy, I do, and anyone that is of the builder mentality is fairly loath to switch govts. unless religious.So 1 must learn to fight in a democracy.

    easy, cakewalk, simple.

    First things first though, If you are in democracy, in theory you are rairoaded border to border or pretty close. The AI will at the minimum have a fairly complete road system with all cities hooked up at least.Your offensive units are either cavalry, cavalry and tanks, or modern armor, artillary of any sort is unwanted and unneeded. The other key offensive unit is the combat settler.

    Build an assault force, roughly the size of his forces (estimated or actual if using spies correctly), a few more if hes got mech inf. a lot less if hes using riflemen. Include 3-5 settlers, and have 15-20 workers ready to go.

    Now you should start looking for your spring board city(ies). What does this city look like? Well its within 3 squares of your borders or free land. It is roaded to your border, and its hooked up to the next city in.Ideally it has a resource of some sort, but thats gravy and not required. Now that we have decided where to start lets invade.

    If the city is 3 squares away, send in the cavalry/MA and take the city, sending in a unit at a time until city is taken.Stack movement is a no-no here. After city is taken, use workers to turn road into rail to the newly taken cityand past it the 1 square in the direction of the next enemy city.Now move the entire stack of unused military, workers, and settlers to the 1 square past the city you have taken,using no movement due to railroads.

    Now you must reassess. Is the next city 3 squares or less away from the new cultural limits? Yes? Repeat the previous step.

    No? Now what do we do? Well thats where our friend the combat settler comes into play. Step 1 abandon the previosly taken city.This will allow you to build a new city 1square closer than before, moving your cultural border 1 square closer to the enemy. Railroad out the new square gained, and move the whole unused stack 1 square closer using no movement.Are you within 3 squares of the enemy city? Yes goto the very first step and continue. No, repeat the 1 square city move.

    Using this process, it is fairly easy to get most if not all of the AI civ destroyed in a turn or 3, thereby negating the warweariness factor alltogether, as in a democracy it takes a bit longer than that for the ppl to get po'ed.
     

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