How to wage endless wars without making any enemies

Seven05

Warmonger
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Like that thread title? Doesn't make a lot of sense so let me explain the concept. Basically, you manipulate the AI civs to the point where you can actually be at war throught the entire game but you don't upset any of them enough to where they will declare war on you. In fact, you'll find your 'enemy' one turn can be your trading partner the next turn.

The core idea behind this concept is to be the puppet master controlling all of the other civs and city states to do your dirty work for you. You can effectively run proxy wars across the globe with the intention of beating down the game leader or your closest competitor if you're in the lead. It works with any civ in any era as long as you don't break it by making enemies early.

What Upsets the AI
To begin, make sure you understand what it is that upsets the AI and makes them hate you. For the most part you only need to worry about two things, settling close and conquering cities. Your reputation as a warmonger or land hog will spread between AI civs that have made contact so you have some degree of freedom early in the game if you're quick. The good news is that the AI gets just as upset at another AI civ in the same circumstance so we'll explore how to use that to your advantage.

You can do this very effectively with a small empire or a large empire and you can use the same basic strategy for any victory condition except domination. The goal is to disrupt your opponents, not conquer them and if you decide to conquer them you won't be able to do this as effectively. So just remember not to settle too close to the AI civs and not to ever conquer any cities EXCEPT a capital or city state that somebody else conquered for the sole reason of liberating it (liberating doesn't count as conquering).

How do I know this? A bunch of testing from the same base save games. I may be entirely wrong but I won't know for sure until we have the DLL source to dig around in.

The Basic Strategy
What I do is really simple and really effective. When I go to war I never go to war alone and I put all of my effort into destroying units and bombarding cities. The general idea is to make it easier for whoever else is also at war with my current target to get in and capture/raze cities so I don't have to.

From the start of the game you need to focus on having enough cities with the proper focus to do whatever it is you need for the victory condition you're aiming for. There is no set sequency of city types or techs you need. You will need to be able to field a decent military, it doesn't need to be huge but it needs to be good. To this end, having good income will help keep your military upgraded and having good production will let you produce the units as needed and you'll need more than you can normally purchase easily.

If you're on a continent with one or two neighbors you can rush and conquer them as long as you can have them out of the game before any of you meet the other civs of the world. You don't have to do that, but if you want more room to grow you can do that early and not suffer for it. It's best to go all or nothing here, so if you don't want to eliminate them all you probably shouldn't eliminate any of them.

Diplomacy
When dealing with the other civs you have two goals: research pacts and not making any real enemies. This means you should reject virtually all other offers so you don't make the mistake of backstabbing one of them. No cooperation pacts, no secrecy pacts and only use open borders if you absolutely need them. Since research pacts take the same lenght of time as the default trade agreements that's a good time to unload some spare resource for a little extra cash.

If you do this you can declare war on any one of them at any time (research pacts excluded) and when you make peace they won't hate you. You also won't make enemies out of their friends and nobody will worry that you're bullying the weak... unless you start conquering cities, so don't do that.

Your Army
Unlike a more traditional conquest strategy that requires a a large and well rounded force this takes something more specialized. Your offensive force will need strong 'melee' units, a great general and one or two siege weapons. I don't recommend archers since they lose the benefit of their promotions if upgrades to riflemen. Once aircraft are available you'll fall in love with aircraft carriers.

On a large map my offensive force consists of 5 'melee' units, 2 'siege' units, a great general and 2-3 naval units. You need early wars to get them promoted beyond 30xp and getting the double xp from the honor social policy branch is definately worth it. Training them up is as easy and declaring war on your first neighbor and then hanging around their capital killing any units they send out and bombarding their city. One or two units with the medic promotion make it easy to sit within the target cities bombard range without getting slaughtered. As long as you don't conquer their capital you can take peace whenever they offer it and you want it and then get back to business as usual (see above).

Easy Mode
The easiest way to do this is with Greece. Your hoplites are very strong so they'll do very well early in the game and they'll be highly promoted by the time you upgrade them (spear->pike->rifle is also a short & cheap upgrade path compared to warrior->swordsman->longsword->rifle). City states are the easiest allies to get to do your dirty work for you and conviently enough when a city state conquers a city they raze it so you can move in and settle if you want. City states don't seem to do amphibious assaults very well if at all and they don't cross any borders unless they're at war so you'll need allied City States near your target. If you find a conquered city state declare war immediately and liberate it... instant ally :)

The reduced decay rate for city states is a huge advantage for this strategy, you will inevitably reach the point when most of them have 'destroy city state x' as their mission and you don't ever want to do those so you get stuck paying them. With Greec and the Patronage branch you'll spend 250 gold every once in a while to keep them allied, it's tougher (but still doable) for anybody else.

You can also use City States as training for your military, just don't conquer them. Find a City State with a bunch of units and attack them then make peace when their units are all dead.

If you do it right you're army will have a bunch of units with close to 300xp by the time you upgrade to rifles & canons. This means you'll have canons with 3 range, indirect fire and logistics, in other words if they try to attack your front line they'll be mostly dead as soon as you can see them. It also means your canons can sit outside of the city bombard range and plink away at no risk.

For social policies you should complete the Honor Branch. The double XP bonus, +15% strength for each adjacent friendly unit (stacks with flanking) and 50% upgrade costs will give you a significant edge and let you get away with a small and highly mobile army.

The War
The actual wars are pretty straight forward. You'll move your small army in, wipe out any units in the area and then bombard cities. You should also pillage every improvement along the way as that gold will add up quickly. Since the idea is to cripple your opponents rather than conquer them pillaging their empire keeps them down a bit after you make peace. In cases where you can't get an ally in the war just the act of killing their units and pillaging their land will be sufficient.

Ideally you'll have a third party involved and your actions will let them conquer a few cities. It is very hard to get people to join you in a war but it is very easy to join them. Most of the time I simply check the scoreboard anytime I see two civs go to war, I then declare war on the high ranked of the two and help the other. The only thing to watch for is any existing research pacts, if you have one active do not declare war on that civ or it will cancel it and you lose the gold. It's also a good idea to fight on their behalf if they're weak as you'll lose the research if they get eliminated.

If you kept your main army small and mobile you can move them around the globe easily. Make sure you have escorts when you're embarked (they double as bombarment on coastal cities too) and try not to declare ware until they're within range to disembark immediately. Mobility is important since you'll probably end up at war with almost every other civ at one time or another, not just your neighbors.

Conclusion
It's a fun alternative strategy, it may also be exploiting broken AI. I think it just confuses them because they're not seeing you conquer anything so you don't seem like a warmonger. As long as you can defend yourself against anybody who attacks you you can just go about whatever it is you like to do in Civ 5.

I hope that all made sense. I also hope somebody from Firaxis sees it and improves the AI diplomacy a bit so they aren't so easy to abuse. This strategy also exposes the potential exploit of farming xp through city bombardment which renders all those +xp buildings all but worthless.
 
What Upsets the AI
To begin, make sure you understand what it is that upsets the AI and makes them hate you. For the most part you only need to worry about two things, settling close and conquering cities. Your reputation as a warmonger or land hog will spread between AI civs that have made contact so you have some degree of freedom early in the game if you're quick. The good news is that the AI gets just as upset at another AI civ in the same circumstance so we'll explore how to use that to your advantage.

You can do this very effectively with a small empire or a large empire and you can use the same basic strategy for any victory condition except domination. The goal is to disrupt your opponents, not conquer them and if you decide to conquer them you won't be able to do this as effectively. So just remember not to settle too close to the AI civs and not to ever conquer any cities EXCEPT a capital or city state that somebody else conquered for the sole reason of liberating it (liberating doesn't count as conquering).

How do I know this? A bunch of testing from the same base save games. I may be entirely wrong but I won't know for sure until we have the DLL source to dig around in.

What about declaring war when you told them you weren't going to? That seems to piss off the AI too.

I noticed too that even if someone else declares war, the AI will get pissed if you take a city of another AI, even if you weren't the one who started the war.
 
secrecy pacts seem to prevent the other guy from getting mad when you wipe the floor with the guy pacted against.
 
This is a super helpful thread. I kept trying to figure out what set the AI off when I conquered a lone city-state in the corner of the map. I didn't think anybody knew about them until I got invaded by three different armies.

I really, really wish they made the diplomacy clearer.
 
This post is generally correct. I've gone from war to war in many games and my approval rating has remained 100% because I'm never the aggressor. The general strategy of "Warring but not conquering" has ensured my position as the world's superpower because if the disruption if causes to the A.I.

Furthermore, I think the diplomacy of civ5 is far more fluid than ci4, simply in the sense that you can go from friends to enemies, enemies to friends, and everywhere in between with a civ in the course of a game. It's far more enjoyable.

Example: As france, England and myself enjoyed a great era of peace for the first half of the game, England was responsible for a fair amount of my resources and income, and I easily went through about 3-5 research pacts with them. However, we were placed pretty much right next to eachother, and while I was able to expand alongside England alright... as our culture borders began to collide, I starting buying up tiles to beat England to the punch. Just one turn after I bought up the tiles I could Afford, England comes knocking on my door telling me my expansion is bugging them. So I agree to stop, Our era of peace continues, by the way, England had allied itself with a military city-state just before I decided to buy tiles... England was smaller than me and had less of a military. Eventually after more turns of peace, I notice along my borders the English Military, no doubt a handful of them being gifted from the city-state. The next turn, England tells me the continent isn't big enough for the two of us.

We fight. I win. I get a fine ransom for my efforts... and trade resumes as normal.

Seriously; For all the complaints about the diplomacy system.. I find that to be freakin awesome. England and I were friends, but it was a tight squeeze.. Hell, I myself in most games would've attacked her first... Anyway, it was a tight squeeze and I was getting most of the land.. So England takes a shot at me. The shot fails, so she resumes our original relationship. Even after the peace treaty and deals transpired, we went right back to exchanging trade agreements.

Personally, I enjoy this much more then a solid Friend or Enemy modifier. It feels much more natural to get into wars with people. Even if it is random (and I don't believe it is), it's still better because even though it may mean your friends may become your enemies... it also means your enemies can become your friends. Which is awesome.
 
Why would you want to remove that? If you're not conquering anyone you're not getting anything out of the deal (right? ;)) so why should the AI hate you for it? It's about the balance of power and keeping it is good for everyone, but especially good for you
 
I noticed too that even if someone else declares war, the AI will get pissed if you take a city of another AI, even if you weren't the one who started the war.
The big part is conquering cities, regardless of who started it. In your next game try this (save your game first): Declare war for no reason on your neighbor (don't form any coop or secrecy pacts with anybody) and march around their land killing every unit they have and pillaging every improvement. When you've had enough make peace and then talk to them again and see how they, and all the other civs, treat you.

Then try it again from the save game only this time march in and conquer one city and see the difference.

This post is generally correct. I've gone from war to war in many games and my approval rating has remained 100% because I'm never the aggressor. The general strategy of "Warring but not conquering" has ensured my position as the world's superpower because if the disruption if causes to the A.I.
It is pretty fun and it makes for an interesting game world when you can be the superpower even if you're not the biggest. In fact diplomacy with all of the AI civs is much more interesting when you're not conquering land.

Are you watching me play Seven05? :scared:
Turn off your web cam! ;)

Why would you want to remove that? If you're not conquering anyone you're not getting anything out of the deal (right? ;)) so why should the AI hate you for it? It's about the balance of power and keeping it is good for everyone, but especially good for you
I wouldn't want to remove it but the AI should eventually catch on to what you're doing and stop joining research treaties the turn after you destroy their entire army and pillage every last inch of their empire. Or, maybe they should try doing the same sometimes, effectively going into 'total war' mode without conquering any cities.

The biggest problem is the over reaction to conquering even a single city. Since you can only liberate capitals you can't even conquer a city originally founded by another civ with the intention of giving it back to them. If you do that, the world hates you despite the fact that you were trying to be the good guy. Even the civ you gift the city too will get mad at you :confused:

In my latest game I'm stuck on a continent with Rome and I'm playing as Russia. My army is probably twice the size of his and I have infantry, fighters, destroyers and artillery against his muskets, canons and frigates. He must really want to go to war so he ended up conquering every city state on our continent. I didn't stop him, instead I waiting until he conquered the last one and then I declared war, destroyed his army and liberated all of the city states. On another continent France is doing the same thing so for fun I sent a bunch of infantry over and gifted them to the city states and now I'm watching them sack and raze French cities.
 
The Magnificent Bastardy potential of this can even be applied to very non-violent playthroughs. I'm going for Bollywood cultural victory right now with India, and because Napoleon got a little too handsy with the city-states, they're all at war with him, and so am I. I'm merrily gifting them units, pillaging his farms, and suffering no ill effects whatsoever. And it's a surprisingly low drain on my (considerable) gold resources.

I'm gonna start another playthrough as Alexander and just exploit this for all it's worth.
 
It is just me or this is ... well, how should I say, stupid ? ;)

You war against someone, go Conan on them ( rape women, kill men, you know the drill ), pillage and burn, kill the armies and no one is pissed with you, but you enter in a city and sudently you are the biggest villain in this side of Saturn...

Ok, balance at it's best :p

P.S Good idea Seven ;) it shouldn't work like that, though :p
 
What was truly hilarious was today I got two of my cities to be able to crank out riflemen in 2 turns on quick speed (though I was in a golden age), and had a sizable tech lead, only one other nation had muskets. I was also allied with 15 city-states. After spamming units for a the amount of the GA (about 30 turns or so), I gifted them all to all of the city-states across the globe, which usually bordered an A.I. at a ratio of 2-1, or in the case of the iroquois, 5 to 1... I declared war on everyone the next turn and proceeded to watch the city-states decimate the globe. Poor iroquois was wiped out almost instantly.
 
It is just me or this is ... well, how should I say, stupid ? ;)

You war against someone, go Conan on them ( rape women, kill men, you know the drill ), pillage and burn, kill the armies and no one is pissed with you, but you enter in a city and sudently you are the biggest villain in this side of Saturn...

Ok, balance at it's best :p

P.S Good idea Seven ;) it shouldn't work like that, though :p

People are heavily invested in their cities, emotionally. :p They have names, and you spent time doing all that careful infrastructure. And there are the pretty graphics. What are tile improvements? 8 turns of some random worker. Psh. Plus, you can repair it all in 20 turns.
 
I am really at loss how diplo works. My current game - deity, pangea. Elizabeth settled 5 cities right near my first 2 cities border in the very beginning.

I go on and play ignoring her , I accept all agreements coming my way from everyone - all pacts and stuff, trade my open borders for gold with every AI. I go on on long war with china (killed it), then napoleon and ghandi. It pretty much lasts all the way to industrial era.

My only units are 4 companion cav , and 2-3 other gifts from city state i use as garison happiness booster. Meanwhile liz gets 3/5 of all map territory wages war with washington (whom she eventually wipes out)

I am the 2nd best in overall score consistently after taking ghandi 2 wonder city. She literally surrounded my cities with her. She never attacked until the very end though when she had absolutely no other options left , so seems my diplo relations was excellent with her. I wonder why
 
Seems like a lot of effort spent on your part. I'm not convinced that the reward of having the AIs fight each other is better than just having more cities and land.
 
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