How to win against all odds...

[wise man]

I find myself in this situation: I have selected only the conquest option (other options liek space race, cultural and diplomatic are off), I am equally scientific as the other nations and have about the same number of cities. I have somewhat more culture. The era is the modern era and all nations are peacefull. All nations are enlarging their military. This generally includes mech.inf., bombers, ordinary and jet fighters, artillery and various types of vessels. In a way, the situation appears somewhat like the spring of 1914 (without the jetfighters that is).
Now, my main problem is that my neighbour, the Chinese, are connected to me by a small landbridge. I have built a sort of series of Maginot fortresses to keep him out, stacked with mech.inf and backed up by fighters and artillery. However, my just installed spy has informed me that the Chines have about three times the amount of fighters, mech.inf and artillery. They don't have tanks, though (I dont know why).
What should I do? It seems that I cannot win the arms race, my production always seems to fall behind. I thought about these options:
- wait until I have nukes (disadvantage: they will have them too, probably, besides this will enrage the other nations)
- try to let the other nations join me (though at least two seem to choose sides of the Chinese, while two other seem to be on my side)
- initiate war and wait till their troops attack my Maginot line (disadvantage: democracy)
- let my tanks attack their improvements including their oil / aluminium / rubber / uranium (disadvantage: their arty and planes will strike on them)

I dont know what to do. Shoud I just give up? In some way, this situation is something I always wanted in Civ. I always was either scientifically much further, so it was quite easy, or too much behind, so I would be destroyed. And now I am there, I dont know what to do...

Thanks for reading this long story and thanks in advance for any tips.

 

[kzk]

Realy I dont know.
Well, do Chnese share boarders with enyone else? If yeah, try to establish MA for any costs against them (mean Chinese) and then wait couple of rounds and attack them with full power. They shouldnt be so powerfull at that moment?! As you mentioned try to cut them of strategic resources as quickly as possible.

 

[Superevie]

I think you need to get everyone in alliance with you against the Chinese. What I would do is goad them into attacking you. Wander around their land and such until the are freakin' mad. Once they declare, shop around to everyone else the idea to get in an alliance against the Chinese. They will feel more inclined to help you because you are the victim in the situation. It will also cause some "war happiness" at first, which is wonderful. This is most important because you are in demo. and WW sets in faster than you can say "annoying." I think this is your best option, but it's going to be tough, I'm not gonna lie. They're a LOT bigger than you. Build up those forces as best as you can and give em' hell. Tell em' Superevie sent ya.

 

[Grille]

A screenshot from the worldmap/borderline and F3 screen would be very handy (save file & some specs would be best).
If you don't know how - you could either look into the FAQ in Civ3 Gen or just ask away here. In any case it's much easier to give advice or judge the whole situation with a save file.

1914 and China alone has 3 times your military strenght (at least MI etc)?
Total conquest might be a bit difficult until 2050, but that certainly depends on the map size (?) and number of remaining civs(?), territory conquered so far(?). Difficulty (AI production bonus?).
Waiting for nukes is a total no-no IMHO, since time isn't on your side anyways.

But don't worry too much about bombers, fighters and arties on their side. The ai cannot use them effectively. The bombers will probably try to attack (resource-) tile improvements near the border, stacks of units in the open and then cities, possibly sea going vessels (that order is *roughly* their order of priority). If you set some fighters on AS-mission at the border, you'd expect to shoot a good portion of their bomber force down during the first turns. AI jets rarely bombard and prefer to stay in a city (get destroyed when capturing/razing the city). Their arty fights in most cases defensively, they'd only shoot when attacking a city or letting a unit of yours stay within bombardment range (avoid this). You could however use your arty to an advantage by shelling metros like mad before attacking with tanks. In stacks of 25-30, you simply bombard the snot out of each metro, attack when every defending unit is red-lined and the metro became a 'town'. Use your bombers to weaken enemy units that sit in the field and lack of fighter support (out of fighter range).
Also mobilize your economy (can only build military stuff after that!), draft units. Sign MAs and/or MPPs (MPP before declaring war, of course). Pay attention to an already existing MPP network!! and manipulate it to your advantage: sign MPP with China's ally and put a worker at the border - don't make ANY hostile action at all (=don't move, attack, be on Chinese territory!!) and let them make the first move after declaring war.
Probably raze cities instead of keeping them (spare protecting units).
About the 'missing tanks'. If they have actually oil, the ai is sometimes lazy building tanks if there's a long period of peace. That changes if you declare war.

If that's exactly the game you ever wanted, don't throw it away!
Finally: Welcome to CFC.

 

[wise man]

Thnx a lot all,
the remark about the date (1914) was meant figurally; that is, the situation in my civ-world is like the situation in the real world of 1914. Actually we're somwehere in the 16th century. So, time is not the problem. Still, I will not go for the nuke option. I will try kzk & superevie's suggestions for diplomacy, though I am afraid I'm not too popular. Thanks a lot Grille, for pointing out their lack of offensive capabilities. As my country is a sort of large peninsula of the mainland / Pangaea-continent, if I concnetrate on sinking their transports and carriers I will be safe behind my Maginot-line. Also, I will try and employ Grille's suggestion of using an arty barrage of 30 shots a turn and taking away their oil. Thanks a lot all of you, I will report the success or failure of my campaign soon,

and thank you for your warm welcome Grille

 

[Grille]

Ah, totally mis-read the date thingie!

Well then don't give up! Good luck!

 

[zerksees]

Suggestion:

If you can, sign a MPP with several AIs (all except China if possible) and then attack China in the same turn. Make sure China is able to counter and invade your territory. When they do, the MPP will kick in and the AI's newly signed MPP's will kick in and they will be forced to join the war against China.

 

[budweiser]

Yup, the first thing you need is a dog-pile on china. It sounds like they border several other civs - that is good. Then I would go for the 30+ artillery. Use mobilization. Once you get to Modern Armor, you will really be able to gain some ground so dont worry too much. I would pursue a limited offensive for now while the rest of the world exhausts itself in heavy fighting. When Modern Armor comes, it can attack three times per turn. Try to get some armies and load them with Modern Armor. You can take the world with no problem.

 

[wise man]

Well, I have tried some of the suggestions, and as promissed I will report the results. To further clarify my possition, without the use of a map, let me explain that the main continent is like a three-pointed star, that I control the upper point, China is in the center of the star, and 4 other civs (France, Russia, Germany and Babylon) share the two other points. Further, there are two not so important islands.
Now, as I was trying to boost my economy into completing as much arty and mech.inf as possible, I got an invitation form China to enter in a non-agression & freedom to move through their territory (how do you call this again) act. I thought it might come in handy, to keep the peace for some while I completed my forces. Other nations also followed China and signed treaties with me, except for Babylonia. Hammurabi (I believe it was him) decided that he did not needed any pacts with anyone, a rather stupid decision of him, because except for a large number of mech.infs, a few conventional missiles and some antiquated fighter planes, he did not have much striking power. This allowed me to invade his country with my modern navy, airforce, large force of guns and my rather large tank-force, on three fronts. Now, I expected the other nations to react furiously at my unprovoked aggression, so I secured my borders with some mech.inf in a line of of fortresses. However, as I started to take in the first border towns of Babylonia and had reduced Babylon to ashes, the other nations decided that if I would get all the spoils, I would become too powerful. So they joined me and started to attack Babylonia too. As mentioned, the Chinese didn't have much tanks and, as predicted by Grille, they didnt use their arty offensively. So they send in wave after wave of mech.inf to attack Babylonia. I had for long stopped my offense, being content with the gain of three or four cities and having built a New-Babylon over the ruins of Babylon-of-old, and sued for peace with Hammurabi (getting all of his tech to thank me for ruining his country). Now the dust has settled, I have checked the reports of my spies and it seems that China has lost most of their finest troops. Though they still have a lot of their arty, they have lost most of their mech.inf and did not have time to build new troops. Also, their fleet is crippled (don't know why) .I, on the other hand have allowed some of my troops to gain experience and have greatly extended my arty force. It seems that the balance has flipped and I control a larger force now.
Still, I decided to wait a few years to attack China. This is because I will soon be able to modernize my tanks and arty. I am already saving my money for this. Also, my spies reported that China has started to build some Nukes. So, it seemed wise to at least build some of my own as well, before getting into action.

Just thought some of you might be interested in this story.
Thanks again for advice.

 

[budweiser]

Now is the time to strike China. Use what armor you have and build more as you go. Their offensive force is depleted from their Babylonian war. Bring along wahtever allies you can - it will weaken them and make it easier for your next war. Try to take thier strategic resources, especialy uranium and aluminum. Use your mech inf and cav and even explorers to pillage. Try to isolate their capitol. Send tanks and arty, covered by mech against their cities.

 

[Arathorn]

Pillaging? Good strategy. Lots of different ways to do it effectively, and you can use cavs, MI, and/or explorers, definitely true.

But focusings on uranium and aluminum? WHY????????

Rubber should be your #1 target -- without rubber, the best land troops that can be built are guerillas -- a 6/6/1 unit does not fair well against tanks or MI. Since you share land borders, the navy and air force barely matter.
If rubber is too hard to pillage (like under a core city), oil should be target #2. That removes tanks (including modern armor) and mech. infantry from the picture, leaving infantry to slog through.

And, of course, use allies.

Arathorn

 

[budweiser]

I said uranium because China is building nukes now. I said aluminum to keep them from getting modern armor. But you are right about rubber and oil. I forgot about it.

 

[Sarevok]

dp it 1914 style, make MPP's with chna's neighbors!

 

[downwithgravity]

i'd say quit; you're completely screwed.

 

[Rohald]

If you share borders only with these landbridge simply put the major part of your mech infrantry, artillery in the forts. The tank place them right behind for counter-attack if they reach to conquer a fortress. Then right "maginot" line put your aviation too (both interceptor and bomber) and bomber them. If you are american bombard their city, radar, road, etc,... if you aren t don t bombard their city. They doesn t have any tanks and will lack in offense.

 

[apparition]

Originally posted by wise man

- try to let the other nations join me (though at least two seem to choose sides of the Chinese, while two other seem to be on my side)
- initiate war and wait till their troops attack my Maginot line (disadvantage: democracy)

I'd say a combination of these two is good. Let the chinese use up all their units attacking your line and you'll build up for the counter offencive.

It reads like the stage you're at is great for a defenceive war.

 

[EQandcivfanatic]

I suggest that you build some tactical nukes and ICBMs, use them to wipe out main points of Chineese military resistence then blitz straight to the capital burning everything in the way. Usually works for me.

 

[Globetrotter]

Originally posted by EQandcivfanatic
I suggest that you build some tactical nukes and ICBMs, use them to wipe out main points of Chineese military resistence then blitz straight to the capital burning everything in the way. Usually works for me.

Only problem with this is the reaction of the other civs.
I would go for signing MPP's with all the other civs, decalring war on China, and keeping a lonely worker as a bate for the Chinese to take.

If time passes by, the Chinese may build lots of nukes. So you'd better hit them soon and hard.

 

[Justinian III]

Want a Tip?

The Roman Empire, is Supperior. Commercial = More Money, and LESS Corruption.

Becuse I would ONLY be a Scientific Civ, if it was a RACE for The Wonders. If even then. That is why The Roman Empire, is Supperior!! Becuse all that Extra money, goes into The Science.. Not only that, but with Leigon, I get a Defence of 3, two Techs into the game,, and Leigons , may I remind you, Remain up to date , until
The Industrial Age.

I have a Multiplayer game going right now, On 2 BIG Sepperate Continents, and I just triggered my Golden Age with Leigons, 3 Techs before Industrial Age. He got The Art of War, but I have, (Smith's Trading Company), J.S. Bachs Catheldral, Sistine Chapel, Pyrimids, Magellans Voyage, and Copernicus Observatory Located in Rome with Newtons University. Im doing OVER 200 Science in Rome at 50% He thinks he's gonna Win.
The Magellans Voyage is Not in Rome.

 

[Frank Grimes]

*sorry about getting further off-topic*

Justinian, what is that? You posted that exact tip elsewhere on these boards. If you want to share the strategy, then just open a new thread.