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How to win for the Mongolia \ Turkey?

Discussion in 'Gameplay Guides' started by Tratatushki, Aug 22, 2018.

  1. Tratatushki

    Tratatushki Chieftain

    Joined:
    Dec 23, 2012
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    V 1.15.
    First&second Mongol UHV it's easy. But i collaps in every game (overexpansion in15 century, stability - 20-30, lol). What am I doing wrong?

    Turkey has a really difficult start and unpleasant terms of UHW.
    Did not get the first move of Constantinople - you lost.
    Did not build University of Sankore - you lost.
    If the Mongols did not collaps - you lost.
    Turkey has HUGE economic problems: there is always not enough money, even when the research is at zero.

    How to play for these two nations?
     
    Last edited: Sep 18, 2018
  2. Tratatushki

    Tratatushki Chieftain

    Joined:
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    Up! How to win for Turkey7
     
  3. Enyavar

    Enyavar Chieftain

    Joined:
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    Just started that scenario in 1.15. Will tell here how it went, but dont hold your breath. Might be finished this weekend, but not sooner.
     
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  4. Enyavar

    Enyavar Chieftain

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    Hi, I finally finished the Turkey game.

    I will admit that Turkey is a tough cookie and you probably need to load several starting games. It is very situational, and I needed a few games to get good conditions.
    - For example, Konstinoupolis may NOT be independent. If it is, you cannot capture it on start. With no own city, you are considered independent yourself and have to just pass through their lands. You gain your first cities (if their are any in the flipzone, and frankly, there WILL) in your third turn on the flip of 1300. (Turkey is unique in that way that the flip is two rounds after the spawn, apparently.) Of course, Independents might allow you to lead your starting army into Greece, and capture Greek cities once the flip happened, but I would not bet my life on it.
    - Konstantinoupolis needs to be easily capturable. In my good game, I banged my army against their Theodosian Walls a few times in different order to finally crack them. With Saveloading I found that my winning strategy was to sacrifice 3/4 of my cavalry; 1/2 of my artillery; both the janissaries and a few more guys of the infantry. That were atrocious losses, especially since my bombards did exactly 0.8 health points of damage to the crossbows, but I humored the game and played on.
    - Next important thing is, you better hope that the Byzantines have built at least one wonder already, better two. In case they didn't, bad luck, try again. For UHV 1, you need 4 current wonders in Konstantiniyye. Good candidates for Istanbul are: Hagia Sophia, Theodosian Walls (need to exist already); Spiral Minaret/UofSankore (by that time, they are either already be built elsewhere; or you can build only one yourself); Topkapi Palace (designed specifically for Turkey here, you can take your time) and Taj Mahal OR the Red Fort (both need lots of research and then likely a Great Engineer to build in time). Not a candidate is the Blue Mosque, even though it looks tailored just for the place (if anyone has the prereq tech before 1550, they are really really good). Even on Heir level, this is the tricky part.
    - The political surroundings need to be favorable, too. The near east is so volatile that no game will look exactly like the next, and you can play as Turkey several times without being bored.

    The last of my points means that I will describe TWO playthroughs: One on heir (easiest level) to prove that it's possible without "cheating" and one on Emperor (second-to-most difficult level), with a lot of grated cheese (aka Civ-Switching).
    Well, With that head-up, HEIR first.
     
  5. Enyavar

    Enyavar Chieftain

    Joined:
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    Turkey on DoC v.1.15. Heir Difficulty, Normal Speed.

    Spoiler Screenshots of First Turn :

    The starting sitch. Note Mongolian Kairo and Tebriz. The Mongolians captured some more cities from weak Byzantine later, the rest became barbarian or independent. Luckily the Mongolians also fell apart soon.
    Civ4ScreenShot0004.JPG
    Only three defenders behind Theodosian Walls...
    Civ4ScreenShot0006.JPG
    ... can do THIS to your army. Here, I used the bombards to siege the city down to only 148%, which was the wrong strategy. In my other try, I stormed the city (lost two bombards and did litle damage), but I managed to get through. Barely.
    Civ4ScreenShot0005.JPG
    No screenies of the winning siege. Too lazy.

    I got a great starting situation with an extremely strong Byzantine Empire which was at a losing war with the Mongolian Empire (as witnessed by conquered Mongolian cities in Mesopotamia and Egypt). As I said in the prelude, I cracked Byzance with losing more than half the starting army, and had to recover first. Then, two cities in Turkey proper flipped to me (Trabzon and Konya), and I moved my starting army first to capture Damaskus (auto-renamed Sam), then I tracked all the way back and captured the greek side of the Byzantines Independents: Belgrad got a raze; Athenai was a great city which I decided to be the main military city later; and Buda (renamed Budin) was an empty shell but on a great spot for later. Healed the troops and switched civics to Citizenship (build infrastructure, quick!) and merchant trade (regulated trade? so early, what is it good for?).
    Just before the troops were ready, the Mongolians already collapsed, and I captured Hierousalem/Kudüs (double jackpot! Temple of Solomon and Church of the Anasthasis were built!) and also Mesopotamiam Ctesiphon/Bagdat/Baghdad. Then, slowly but steadily, I made my way into Egypt and soon had Cairo/Kahire and Alexandria/Kesanderia by 1500 AD; Mekkah/Makka by 1520 AD.

    Conquest rules are, in my opinion: Grab independent cities early if they are either good or in line with the UHV 2. Also, stay away from Persia, they spawn in the 16th century. Don't attack other civilizations until you have janissaries - then rush them with a (partly drafted) army.

    But UHV 1 is not conquest, it's wonders. I had two of my wonders already built in Istanbul: The Sophia was adding hammers to each of my mosques, and there were these darned walls that nearly destroyed me in the opening move. Do you know which great person they promote? I just needed to build a forge and call it a Great Engineer. That took no time. He built me Sankore for free. Spiral Minaret would have also still been buildable in my game, but not in Konstantiniyye without more culture. So, build culture buildings! Lots!
    Morokko also competed for the Minaret, as I soon learned. So, no Spiral Minaret, sadly. Also, no Topkapi, because there was no orthodoxy in Konstantiniyye. I researched extremely fast now to get the Taj Mahal, and then planned to use a Great Engineer two turns before the time limit. My attempts always only yielded Great Other Persons however: Prophets, Merchants and Scientists, despite a 50% Engineer chance! Arrgh!
    So I jumped 14 turns back in time (loaded older saves), built a Monastery and a Missionary elsewhere and spread Orthodoxy to Istanbul, and now could build the Topkapi Palace. Darn inconvenient, that's what it was! But it was ready in 1540 already... Also, I got a Great Engineer this time. I elected to build a Manufactory to benefit even after Topkapi Palace was built, and also built the Taj Mahal as the fifth wonder (but after 1550 AD). Also, the Blue Mosque, muuuch later.

    With Topkapi on the track as the 4th wonder, I had to solve the next puzzle: Domination over the Osman Empire at its peak and more.
    Cairo, Mekka, Baghdad: Checked already.
    [These are desirable areas and probably in most games independent at that point. I don't know how much resistance the Egyptians would put up; Arabia declines early in most games; the Seljuks are mostly a historical footnote. In most games, the Moors are declining in the 15th century, so that the Libyan and Tunesian coast can be yours, too. The Black Sea and Vienna are more of a problem, usually.]
    Spoiler UHV completion on the way :

    Civ4ScreenShot0008.JPG
    Soon, also the Eastern Mediterranean. Civ4ScreenShot0010.JPG
    And Vienna.
    Civ4ScreenShot0011.JPG
    You can't see it from those screenshots, but I'm a infrastructure builder. I scrambled for units when I took these screenies, leaving only a few token troops in my cities. An attack from Persia or the Numidian barbs would have likely killed me. With the UP of Turkey, however, I could recruit lots of cannon fodder troops, a long time before Nationalism.

    In my game however, the Moors were still collapsing but kicking until 1590, and held Al-Jazair/Cezayir and Tarabulus/Trablus (and Sana'a, not that I'd want that spot). Holy Roman Germany was sitting in B[a/e/i]ngazi (!!), in Vienna if course, and also in Venice. And respawned Russia held the Northern Black Sea coast, recently conquered from Poland. The usual logic would demand to attack Russia first: it's bound to be even stronger later; so destroy it early. But their recent respawn made an attack impossible for 10 turns, and Holy Rome was still at war with France and Russia, and lost the Polish vassal... >>> Attack on Germany! I fortified the Balkan front in Budin and mopped up Africa first, also conquering the finally collapsed Moorish parts. Second on the agenda was Vienna (lengthy siege), then another turn of war with an active threat on Frankfurt. Germany vassalized.

    To take them on, I still wanted to anchor my core and founded cities on decent core spots - Konya and Trabzon are NOT favorites of mine. So: Settlers on Sinop, Poti, Van, even Sögüt. These cities are also bad spots if they weren't in the core, and they only work once I am in the Renaissance - starting cities with Harbor, Library, Granary, Aqueduct, Forge, and quickly outfitted with religious buildings, markets, jails and a garrison. They will never be BIG cities, but their many many culture buildings (like in all of your cities) will contribute to the UHV 3 score, I hope. Until then, they are also nice spots to recruit soldiers. (By the way, I repeat myself: USE the edirme UP to recruit janissaries quickly, once you can finally build them! Though use your non-cores metropoles for that, I'd say.) Only after having these stability anchors, I switched away from Citizenship+Despotism; back to Vassalage+Monarchy.

    Finally, Russia. In total, I needed to get those cities in the Russian War: Odessa, Rostov and Kiev (by conquest) and Kefe (by settler)
    Civ4ScreenShot0012.JPG
    Okay, done. Now, all that is left to do is wait for the victory.

    Spoiler More UHV progress :
    Civ4ScreenShot0014.JPG Civ4ScreenShot0015.JPG


    In 1733 I was already leading the combined Europeans with a 25k:16k margin which got bigger every turn - 37k:21k by 1766 and 56k:27k in 1800. In Istanbul alone, there were 16k Culture.
    But consider that sometimes, fallen European civs are respawning, and sometimes civs leap in their culture for other reasons, like having the sistine chapel and spamming state religion buildings: so don't rely on your lead until you have won.
    Also consider that an enemy can still attack you in the late game and either conquer your culture-laden cities. Or, Egypt or Arabia revolting. So, be prepared for stunts like that, I guess?

    Fun facts from my game:
    - the superstable colonial empire ranking second spot for centuries was: Portugal
    - after I spent a Great Prophet on Vienna, all cities in the Netherlands, Germany, Italy, Poland and Scandinavia were islamic. Even Prussia later changed their state religion to it.
    - England was dead for centuries and was online revived shortly before the American spawn
    - Iran started as the tech leader, attacked me around 1750 and ended as my doormat.
    - Spain conquered Independent cities in Scandinavia. I don't know how the mechanic did it, but the Danish civ re-emerged for the third time and went down ten turns later, without reclaiming Spanish Stockholm.
    - Prussia gifted me their city of Krakau (0% Turkish!) right before the first and only Congress, demanded it back in the Congress - but I rather kept it. There was a Sisteen Chapel in it.

    Civ4ScreenShot0016.JPG
    Summary: The first UHV is difficult - yes, on Heir. The second UHV is easily manageable. The third is a cakewalk, provided you did the earlier legwork.

    Um, about the bad economy for the Turks: That's apparently not an issue at heir level, but I will expand on it when I get around to the Emperor level.
    Though I have to admit: I had conquered three good shrines, rather early. A key thing is the building of infrastructure as well, both improvements and buildings.

    But with all my infrastructure, I could never have more than 70% research. Note that in other heir games, with a large proper built empire, I can research at 100% and have a income surplus!
     
    Last edited: Sep 30, 2018
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  6. Enyavar

    Enyavar Chieftain

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    Turkey on DoC v.1.15. Emperor Difficulty, Normal Speed.

    So, um, I cheesed and still failed. For a couple of small reasons where I took suboptimal decisions. I am tempted to try again with nearly the same strategy and WIN. Eventually. Not soon.

    - Emperor difficulty was chosen deliberately. I am a firm believer of proper empire infrastructure, and the "trick" I am describing next is lowering the REAL difficulty level significantly. Maybe Monarch.
    - Start a 3000BC game as Byzantine. You will start with Konstantinopoulis (Konstiniyye/Istanbul) in 330 AD: build the Hagia. You'll want military, so tech is Steel and Nobility. Build settlers in Athens, and at least one additional worker.
    - Wait two turns, your Empire will flip to you. In my playthrough, I got two cities in Greece - Athens (Atika) and Apollonia (Avlonya); and two cities in the Levante - Tyros (Sur/Antakya) and Hierousalem (Quds/Kudüs). Neither of these will flip to you in the Turkey game, but they are giving you the tools to prepare your flip zone.
    - Long story short: preplace your desired cities in later Turkey and improve the land beforehand.

    Spoiler Short story long: :


    Spoiler Keep in mind... :
    ... You are possibly surrounded by declining empires, barbs and indies. But you are NOT alone! China and India were tech leaders in my world; Ethiopia contended with me for the Hagia Sophia and had it by 620 AD. (I replayed with that in mind then, using the whip more often, and barely beat them to it.)
    ... Barbarian spawns. Don't go out for barb hunting, just sit tight and wait them out. Only defend your improvements and road network if you have either capable; or otherwise outdated spare soldiers! I lost a dozen hill archers nevertheless.
    ... the Arabian spawn: don't build anything in Quds (in 20 turns, I managed 4 skirmishers and a harbor). Also don't conquer Egypt or Mesopotamia and retreat all your units to Tyros in 620. Leave things down there for your janissaries to mop up.
    ... the Seljuk spawn: abandon even Tyros in the year 1050. Have spearmen ready to take out the stack in Anatolia: 6 gulash warriors and 3 triforces. They look tough, and they are. Don't mind the other stacks, let them take Tyre and the whole mideast if they want. They are chaff for the Mongols to rip through. When they bother your chosen city sites, they are fair game; though I'd have no problems losing Kotais and Armenia to them, as long as they don't raze the places.
    ... you get a chance to spread four different religions in your empire: Islam, Orthodoxy, Catholicism, Judaism. Spread all of them as far as you can, that means a bonus to culture, later!

    Spoiler Screenshots from the Byzantine starting turns. :

    Civ4ScreenShot0060.JPG
    Civ4ScreenShot0070.JPG
    .... and the eventual empire!
    Civ4ScreenShot0078.JPG


    My starting situation with regards to wonders: Athens had Gr.Sphinx, Parthenon and Temple of Zeus. Apollonia had Gr.Cothon and Gr.Lighthouse... okay?? Also, somehow a spice resource was in the Danube bent, apparently that spice merchant event. Religion was funny: Orthodox holy site was Siwa which I'd have raided otherwise. Catholicism had already been founded before 330: in Argentoratum (Strasbourg).

    My Byzantines were swamped in barbarians all around (Rome, Persia, Egypt: All taken over). I defeated dozens of horse archers of all flavors.
    Spoiler Just one screenshot that stands for one of many waves :

    Civ4ScreenShot0077.JPG

    Okay! All existing cities before the flip need to build settlers, or troops for the takeover, or improve your economy so that you don't tank before the switch. For new "Turkish" cities I chose the sites of Attaleia (Antalya), Amastris (Amastra), Theodosioupolis (Manzikert), Chersonesos (Kefe), Kotais (Poti) and Armenia (Van): In that order and all in the flip zone. These new cities build only infrastructure, while the workers prioritize to improve future turkish lands!
    • This was the first phase of my Byzantine game: Defend against Barbs from all sides, build Hagia, and bring the starting cities in order (Byzance starts with citizenship and despotism, muhaha). The first other civ I saw were the Arabs which spawned in 620. That was also the point when I finished Hagia Sophia and had researched Steel and Nobility, and founded the first two cities of my list above.
    • In my second phase, Arabia was looming in the south, but never declaring war. The Balkan got swamped with more barbarian horse archers, I founded the next three cities of the list (for Kotais, I needed to raze Tbilissi). At the end of that phase, the catholic Europeans spawned and I could get Aemonia Julia from the Barbarians, only to gift it to the French and the Germans. The barbarians recaptured it three times, the last time Buda sent its horse archers over and made it an independent (Hungarian) city.
    Neat historical accuracy: Barbarossa had his crusade right through my territory and besieged Jerusalem around 960 AD. He failed, but the Caliphate still went down a few turns later. Inaccurate was that I now founded Armenia as southeastern cornerstone of the Turkish core. That spot is great because it can farm the flatlands of Babylon.
    • The third phase was filled with preparation to hand things over to real Turkey. Also, I repelled the Seljuks. To that end, I amassed unholy amounts of Heavy Spearmen in my cities, and slaughtered the Gulasch Horses. Again, contradicting my counsil above, I even defended Tyros after I had eradicated three of the mideast Seljuk stacks. And as they kept attacking Tyre, I re-conquered Jerusalem. The end of that phase was: building infrastructure in the future core, and build missionaries in the future periphery to spread religions.
    Spoiler Things that I did wrong as Justinian :
    Hindsight I: I should have made a point of retiring most of the anti-Seljuk spearmen to replace them with horse archers and other fast-moving units. The slow melee spears were complete ballast during the big Turkey conquest.
    Hindsight II: As a final touch, I razed Babylon even though there was a Spiral Minaret in there: More food for Armenia that way. Though, with 20+ cities later, that meant -40 gold income, which was not so great. And even worse, Babylon is in the northwest corner of the six-tiles Baghdad rectangle. UHV 3 is to control that spot many centuries later, definitely with a city. That way, I had to construct a completely new city there, later.
    Hindsight III: Antalya: like Kefe, it's NOT core; 1N (Sögüt) would have meant less food, but a core city. Don't know how I overlooked that.

     

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  7. Enyavar

    Enyavar Chieftain

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    If you thought of evacuating your cities before he appears, Mehmed will capture the Levante and Konstantiniyye on his own in the flip-turn, without casualties. If you had a sizable Byzantine army distributed in the flipped turkish cities, Mehmed spawns with an army that would make Attila envious, auto-converting all your archers and skirmishers to cross- and longbows. Even with vassalage, this mass of units makes up 2/3 of the expenses/turn. Which means you really NEED to capture lots of cities fast (increasing your amount of free units) and to reduce your army quickly (ideally down so much that you only need to [not] pay for the free units).
    Both of these goals coincide.
    Right the next 8 turns, you should spread out and capture: The rest of Byzantine Greece; Makkah, Egypt, Libya, Coastal Persia (In my game, these were all strong Independents); the Balkan up to Vienna (in probably most games controlled by Holy Rome, which you should then vassalize easily). If you capture small bad cities, just raze them (but not too many and not too large ones, or the stability goes belly-up). Essentially, you have the chance NOW to reach the "control areas" UHV very early and be done with it. If you can, take even more. Get as many cities as you still can comfortably reach with your troops. For example I had a wonderful shot at Italian Florence, then French Rome: two strong locations! At that point, I looked to get as many European civs under my thumb as possible, in preparation of UHV goal 3.

    Spoiler Important: The first revolution. :
    Pro-tip if you run out of money too fast as the big conquest tapers out: You pay no upkeep during a revolution, so make it a three-turn one. How should you switch? Well, in that order:
    - Keep Clergy, you'll build mostly buildings. You already have too many units.
    - Vassalry has +1 Hammer on Farms, and is compatible... But, NO. After that revolution, you definitely need to have citizenship, and (re)build the most essential buildings in all your acquired cities really fast: Jails, Libraries, Markets, Forges, Aqueducts! Once that is done, you will want to switch away from Citizenship again due to its outdatedness and incompatibility, but for now it is a must with your many undeveloped cities.
    - Your Big Conquest is over and done with, so quickly away from conquest and towards Tributaries. Especially if you conquered yourself some vassals (I had Holy Rome and France).
    - You did start with Regulated Trade. That's not the worst civic, but you'll not build Custom Houses soon. Instead you'll need more currency, which is provided by Merchant Trade.
    - Where possible, you have whipped your new cities for Madrassas and Mosques, right? To get the Hagia Sophia hammers? So now, they need peace from dictatorship and get new population. Monarchy is the best choice for that, because now you'll want to garrison your remaining units and nurse them back to full health; or redistribute your troops according to current needs.
    - You have captured lots of Workers, right? So you won't really need Slavery any longer and Manorialism looks interesting, imho.


    At that point, I suddenly got a surprise from the past. See, when I started as Byzantium, I got the Sports League quest to build 7 amphitheaters. From Byzantium, my Turks captured Statue of Zeus, and in Persepolis/Siraz the Maussolleom of Halikarnassos. 12 turns of golden age right at the end of my big conquest: thank you RNG!
    (Hindsight IV: Really, without that Golden Age I have no idea how I could have managed the game. When it was over, my economy tanked so bad it was not funny.)

    Once you're done done with conquest, reduce your army drastically. After you killed most of them in battles, now disband the rest of your (worst) units. Especially the Melee units and the Bombards. Spare the Janissaries, of course. Disband, disband, until you have to pay no additional upkeep anymore. Your treasury is aching already enough because now you get to be saddled with your large city maintenance costs. After having had 100% wealth for many turns, now you must turn around and build jails and markets everywhere where it's possible.
    There were cities that I conquered which are not profitable enough - I split them from my empire again, unless they were in your task zone of UHV 2. I tried to get UHV 2 now as quickly as possible and then grant independence to all bad cities. In my game, I chose to get rid of all Northafrican cities east of Egypt, the town in the south of Italy that never gets up to speed, and all arabian-peninsula cities except for Mekke. Sana'a may be a great spot for the Arabians as a stability anchor... but for Turkey, it's instable ballast and I got rid off it.
    (Hindsight V: I shouldn't have conquered all these cities as early as I did. Instead, I should have disbanded my army many turns earlier, and all melee infantry right after the flip, the archer infantry at the first revolution, and the cavalry after reaching UHV2.)

    I really stuggled with the economy. Even in 1450, I still had the science slider at 10% and was earning a hefty negative income... At the same time when I should actually research like mad to quickly tech to the Topkapi Palace (wonder #2).
    (Hindsight VI: I only had the Hagia Sophia built in Istanbul, so Topkapi is the only wonder I could have built in 1550 with my setup, if I had followed all other hindsights. The Spiral Minaret and Sankore were already taken. Only a great Engineer in combination with the Taj Mahal would have secured me a 3rd Wonder... And I need 4.)

    Conclusion of all Hindsights: On Emperor level, my Byzantine setup for a Turkish UHVictory is unlikely to work; at least with my skills. Maybe a 600AD start works (the two Byzantine wonders are already there!), but I'm sceptical: Even on Heir level, the Topkapi Palace was tight; on Emperor it's probably only possible with a great Engineer.
    If I want to secure UHV, I probably need to prepare the land with Greece! Build 4 wonders in Byzantium, switch to Turkey after ~200 turns of Greek play, then don't research as Turkey so that the wonders don't go obsolete. Do the big conquest to fulfill UHV1+2 within the first rounds. Afterwards, dissolve the army and build culture buildings for ~150 turns.
     
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  8. Imp. Knoedel

    Imp. Knoedel Knoedel Imperator Satani Filius Augustus Nooborum

    Joined:
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    Location:
    Land der Mörder, Land der Hetzer
    Pro-Tip: In the BUG Mod Options go to the Scoreboard and enable "Show Minor Civilizations". Independents will now be listed on the scoreboard. Hold Alt while left-clicking on them to declare war.
     

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