How to Win SV on t250?

Fish Man

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Feb 20, 2010
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I know that there's a thread about this somewhere, but it got derailed and doesn't really answer my questions.

SO: how do you pro deity/immortal players win a SV by t250? I grew my cities as well as I could and built all the science buildings ASAP, beelined all the science techs, and planted great scientists up to modern, but the earliest SV I got was still around t350.

Now, I know what you're gonna say. You'll tell me to do 2 things: ignore the bottom of the tech tree after metallurgy and sign mass RAs. Both don't work, and I'll tell you why.

I play on emperor, so other empires are often broke since they buy units when they have the money. They often demand all my strategic resources for RA, but with a bit of diplomacy I almost always get them to 'friendly'. But that's not the problem. You see, I don't get how RAs work since they often don't for me. I know that they give 50% of the beakers of the median of available techs that can be researched, but more often than not they give me none. Zero. Zilch. No return at all. Meanwhile, on other players' games I've heard they give as much as 24,000! Could be a bug, but as far as I'm concerned RA shave off a max of 1 turn off my researching next tech, so I often don't sign them.

Now, for the ignoring military techs. Usually, there is a runaway AI on another continent and I'm forced to stop them, and I NEED these military techs (dynamite, combustion, rocketry, etc.) to have a fighting chance. With superior thinking skills I win, but I need to spend extra time researching those techs; if not, their bpt rises exponentially into the thousands.

So, oh great CiV masters (I'm looking at you, Joshua43214), teach me your scientific ways. I often watch Madjinn's LPs and he has as much, if not less, bpt than me but somehow goes into info era by t240. How do you do it? How do you win a SV as early as t250?
 

ds61514

Warlord
Joined
Jan 2, 2006
Messages
210
I know that there's a thread about this somewhere, but it got derailed and doesn't really answer my questions.

SO: how do you pro deity/immortal players win a SV by t250? I grew my cities as well as I could and built all the science buildings ASAP, beelined all the science techs, and planted great scientists up to modern, but the earliest SV I got was still around t350.

Now, I know what you're gonna say. You'll tell me to do 2 things: ignore the bottom of the tech tree after metallurgy and sign mass RAs. Both don't work, and I'll tell you why.

To be honest, it's incredibly hard to figure out what the issue is without seeing screenshots of your in-game progress, but I'll try anyways.

1. When do you get your NC?
2. When do you hit Education?
3. What is your BPT at Turn 140 (it should be ~230-280)?
4. What is your BPT at Turn 200 (it should be ~550-600)
5. Why do you have to stop a runaway AI on another continent? Does an Emperor AI win by Turn 350?
 

Past Redemption

Chieftain
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Aug 1, 2013
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70
Location
California, United States
WE really need more info. Civ plays into it alot, since sub 250 is cake with Babylon/Korea, but the huns aren't quite so fortunate. AS long as you have NC up by 70-85 you should be golden. Finding some jungle is also helpful, and aggressively expand into mountains (Inca are especially ridiculous with this strategy).
 

chazzycat

Deity
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Oct 13, 2010
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2,918
sounds like you are going on old info...research agreements haven't worked that way for a long time. Are you playing BNW? RAs are definitely pretty important if your goal is a fast tech victory.
 

Fish Man

Emperor
Joined
Feb 20, 2010
Messages
1,533
To be honest, it's incredibly hard to figure out what the issue is without seeing screenshots of your in-game progress, but I'll try anyways.

1. When do you get your NC?
2. When do you hit Education?
3. What is your BPT at Turn 140 (it should be ~230-280)?
4. What is your BPT at Turn 200 (it should be ~550-600)
5. Why do you have to stop a runaway AI on another continent? Does an Emperor AI win by Turn 350?

Well that explains a lot...I hit the t140 bpt landmark but not the t200. So I need to grow more. Any tips for doing that while keeping unhappiness in check?

BTW, how DO RAs work nowadays?
 

erajah

Chieftain
Joined
Aug 30, 2010
Messages
66
How are RA's calculated?

300+ does seem slow, but faster wins are actually easier on higher levels because as you pointed out the AI does have money.
 

chazzycat

Deity
Joined
Oct 13, 2010
Messages
2,918
To be honest, it's incredibly hard to figure out what the issue is without seeing screenshots of your in-game progress, but I'll try anyways.

1. When do you get your NC?
2. When do you hit Education?
3. What is your BPT at Turn 140 (it should be ~230-280)?
4. What is your BPT at Turn 200 (it should be ~550-600)
5. Why do you have to stop a runaway AI on another continent? Does an Emperor AI win by Turn 350?

dayyum, these are aggressive targets. I've won plenty of science games around turn 250 and don't think I've ever been near these numbers.

Agreed on emperor you generally shouldn't need to do anything about runaways on other continents. They probably aren't going to win.
 

glory7

King
Joined
Nov 6, 2012
Messages
705
I know that there's a thread about this somewhere, but it got derailed and doesn't really answer my questions.

SO: how do you pro deity/immortal players win a SV by t250? I grew my cities as well as I could and built all the science buildings ASAP, beelined all the science techs, and planted great scientists up to modern, but the earliest SV I got was still around t350.

Now, I know what you're gonna say. You'll tell me to do 2 things: ignore the bottom of the tech tree after metallurgy and sign mass RAs. Both don't work, and I'll tell you why.

I play on emperor, so other empires are often broke since they buy units when they have the money. They often demand all my strategic resources for RA, but with a bit of diplomacy I almost always get them to 'friendly'. But that's not the problem. You see, I don't get how RAs work since they often don't for me. I know that they give 50% of the beakers of the median of available techs that can be researched, but more often than not they give me none. Zero. Zilch. No return at all. Meanwhile, on other players' games I've heard they give as much as 24,000! Could be a bug, but as far as I'm concerned RA shave off a max of 1 turn off my researching next tech, so I often don't sign them.

Now, for the ignoring military techs. Usually, there is a runaway AI on another continent and I'm forced to stop them, and I NEED these military techs (dynamite, combustion, rocketry, etc.) to have a fighting chance. With superior thinking skills I win, but I need to spend extra time researching those techs; if not, their bpt rises exponentially into the thousands.

So, oh great CiV masters (I'm looking at you, Joshua43214), teach me your scientific ways. I often watch Madjinn's LPs and he has as much, if not less, bpt than me but somehow goes into info era by t240. How do you do it? How do you win a SV as early as t250?

just play Deity challenges and immortal challenges - and read what others did and try again. And if you think you cannot improve by yourself, ask questions. Provide details. No one will be able to help you out if you ask this kind of vague words.

RAs give none when your partner denounces or DoWs you. Not sure it also happens in other case.

And runaway at emperor...? then you are really slow. You should never worry about other AIs at all at emperor level, except that they are so slow that you cannot find worthy RA partners and cannot get coal or aluminum.
 

Fish Man

Emperor
Joined
Feb 20, 2010
Messages
1,533
just play Deity challenges and immortal challenges - and read what others did and try again. And if you think you cannot improve by yourself, ask questions. Provide details. No one will be able to help you out if you ask this kind of vague words.

RAs give none when your partner denounces or DoWs you. Not sure it also happens in other case.

And runaway at emperor...? then you are really slow. You should never worry about other AIs at all at emperor level, except that they are so slow that you cannot find worthy RA partners and cannot get coal or aluminum.

Well...I usually open with 3-city tradition or 5-city liberty. I try to build the GL ASAP and so far haven't failed. Take philosophy as my free tech, usually at t50. Then I go construction for c-bows, currency for markets and/or Petra, and rush education. Often reach education at t100-120. I enter the Renaissance at t150 with either astronomy or acoustics. Then it's often about 40 turns per era: industrial at t190 with scientific theory, modern at t230 with replaceable parts, atomic at t270 with radar, and information at t300 with satellites (I often skip many atomic techs to rush Hubble with GE). Of course, I try to get plastics ASAP and build all the required science buildings as soon as they're available. I also grow my cities to ~20 pop at capital, ~15 pop all other major cities. I often have unhappiness problems; would appreciate advice on how to deal with that also.

Along the way, I also like to hit major military techs fast, such as dynamite or electronics. In fact, I often take electronics for free as rationalism finisher. In my most recent game as Arabia, Greece was the runaway as he had taken over his ENTIRE continent and was allied with every single CS save 2 :eek:. I started on an island separated from the mainland by some cost, but took Ghandi and Theodora over with my camel archers. I don't have the save right now, but lemme tell you: it was heck'a hard plowing through Greece until rocketry and I only won a SV on t360.
 

Unresolved

King
Joined
Dec 22, 2012
Messages
956
Well...I usually open with 3-city tradition or 5-city liberty. I try to build the GL ASAP and so far haven't failed. Take philosophy as my free tech, usually at t50. Then I go construction for c-bows, currency for markets and/or Petra, and rush education. Often reach education at t100-120. I enter the Renaissance at t150 with either astronomy or acoustics. Then it's often about 40 turns per era: industrial at t190 with scientific theory, modern at t230 with replaceable parts, atomic at t270 with radar, and information at t300 with satellites (I often skip many atomic techs to rush Hubble with GE). Of course, I try to get plastics ASAP and build all the required science buildings as soon as they're available. I also grow my cities to ~20 pop at capital, ~15 pop all other major cities. I often have unhappiness problems; would appreciate advice on how to deal with that also.

Along the way, I also like to hit major military techs fast, such as dynamite or electronics. In fact, I often take electronics for free as rationalism finisher. In my most recent game as Arabia, Greece was the runaway as he had taken over his ENTIRE continent and was allied with every single CS save 2 :eek:. I started on an island separated from the mainland by some cost, but took Ghandi and Theodora over with my camel archers. I don't have the save right now, but lemme tell you: it was heck'a hard plowing through Greece until rocketry and I only won a SV on t360.

I know you said you want to continue getting military techs, but it's really not a good idea to in a 250 SV. Wars don't really benefit you past turn 150 since those cities will never become productive science cities in time. Beeline the science techs and don't focus on your military so much. Instead of aiming for X bpt at turn Y, I prefer to use technology benchmarks. What turn do you hit Education, Scientific Theory, Plastics, and Rocketry? For a sub 250 SV, I would aim for a turn 210 Plastics, 230 at the latest.
 
Joined
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Messages
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I know that there's a thread about this somewhere, but it got derailed and doesn't really answer my questions.

SO: how do you pro deity/immortal players win a SV by t250? I grew my cities as well as I could and built all the science buildings ASAP, beelined all the science techs, and planted great scientists up to modern, but the earliest SV I got was still around t350.

First, I would not feel bad if you can't get 600bpt by turn 200 :). I am highly skeptical that that is regularly doable with the average random start.

I can't speak to a turn 250 win, but 280-290 is pretty easy by saving your GS a little earlier than you might be already, and getting up to 1000BPT+ at your peak (plug those specialists in!). If you have a faith machine going, you should have 7-9 GS available by turn end, plus that Rationalism bump. (That includes the two you get from Hubble.) Pop those scientists after you hit 1000+ -- that should get you most of the way -- after that, probably depends on how good your RAs are.
 

Fish Man

Emperor
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Feb 20, 2010
Messages
1,533
I know you said you want to continue getting military techs, but it's really not a good idea to in a 250 SV. Wars don't really benefit you past turn 150 since those cities will never become productive science cities in time. Beeline the science techs and don't focus on your military so much. Instead of aiming for X bpt at turn Y, I prefer to use technology benchmarks. What turn do you hit Education, Scientific Theory, Plastics, and Rocketry? For a sub 250 SV, I would aim for a turn 210 Plastics, 230 at the latest.

Wait...so to get a t250-275 SV get plastics at t210? I often get it t230 AT THE EARLIEST; how do you get it so quickly? And even if you do get by t210 how can you research ~20 more techs AND build 6 ship parts in 60-70 turns?

As I already said, I NEED those military techs or else the AI's gonna win a sub-t350 science victory. So my choices are: find out how to win SV earlier, or go military and kill AI, but win at t350 or later.
 
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And even if you do get by t210 how can you research ~20 more techs AND build 6 ship parts in 60-70 turns?

GS GS GS GS GS! Pop them puppies. 2500 faith = two GS, Hubble = two GS, and you should have at least three or four generated from cities that are maxed out on science specialization.

As far as ship parts go, your capitol should be able to kick out any particular component in 6 turns or less. Get to Boosters first, have your other cities spend their 12 or 15 turns working on them.
 

Unresolved

King
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Dec 22, 2012
Messages
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Wait...so to get a t250-275 SV get plastics at t210? I often get it t230 AT THE EARLIEST; how do you get it so quickly? And even if you do get by t210 how can you research ~20 more techs AND build 6 ship parts in 60-70 turns?

As I already said, I NEED those military techs or else the AI's gonna win a sub-t350 science victory. So my choices are: find out how to win SV earlier, or go military and kill AI, but win at t350 or later.

Honestly, you have some contradicting statements here. You research military techs because you can't research fast enough to out-tech the AI. But you're having trouble out-teching the AI because you're going for military techs instead of science techs. I can't really speak for BNW because I kind of lost interest(I did get Education around the same turn I did in G&K, so that's a good sign), but in G&K, it should take around 40 turns from Plastics until you win. The priority is always your science techs in a 250 SV game. As long as you're playing your diplomacy well enough to not get ganged up on by the AI, military comes second(or even third).
 

Deau

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Apr 17, 2011
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Quebec, Can
Don't go liberty for science in BnW it is too growth costly.

To get started, pick a start that offers good growth and has mountainside/riverside tile available to settle. Pray that you will have a neighbor civ within 10 tiles to steal a worker early and then make peace to receive their first trade routes' 3-5 BPT and gold (this actually plays a surprisingly big role to how early you can get to education and snowball from there).

Expand to 3-4 cities and focus on timeliness of events:
Do your best to have a SP kick in very shortly after entering renaissance and preferably have a GW pop sometimes around that with increased focus on culture CSs quests/gold dump so that you can hit secularism within only a few turns of education.

Try to get the trade routes gold increasing infrastructure up and running asap in your capital. The more trade routes are sent to you from a raw value stand point, the faster you get DoFs with civs further out (although it generally needs them to forward settle at least one city near you or land routes range is too short until modern).

Make sure you have a start that allows a decent-strong FPT output. You don't need to spread a religion aggressively or anything, you just need to be able to purchase more GPs with faith to help your cause (or, if you are randomly lucky and a neighboring AI like Ethiopia picks up Jesuit education, you want enough FPT to use his religion on all your cities but capital to rush-buy science buildings). This has to be done WITHOUT the help of piety. 5 trad+patronage/consulates+rationalism and eventually scholasticism/spam tenets will already strain your SP deliveries enough that you can spare 2-3 points into piety in the early game. Especially to how strong consulates is.
 

Fish Man

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Honestly, you have some contradicting statements here. You research military techs because you can't research fast enough to out-tech the AI. But you're having trouble out-teching the AI because you're going for military techs instead of science techs. I can't really speak for BNW because I kind of lost interest(I did get Education around the same turn I did in G&K, so that's a good sign), but in G&K, it should take around 40 turns from Plastics until you win. The priority is always your science techs in a 250 SV game. As long as you're playing your diplomacy well enough to not get ganged up on by the AI, military comes second(or even third).

No, I actually don't contradict myself. Even if I DON'T go for military techs, I can't out-tech the AI, so I have to go on the warpath to stop the AI by destroying it. This delays my SV for quite a bit, but at least I don't outright lose.

And I tend to capture AI early cities early in the game since they DOW me first (also it removes other potential competitors) so by mid-game everyone hates me for warmongering.

Finally, sorry I didn't make this clear, but I'm playing G+K.

GS GS GS GS GS! Pop them puppies. 2500 faith = two GS, Hubble = two GS, and you should have at least three or four generated from cities that are maxed out on science specialization.

As far as ship parts go, your capitol should be able to kick out any particular component in 6 turns or less. Get to Boosters first, have your other cities spend their 12 or 15 turns working on them.

There's 21 techs required after plastics. Say I have 8 GS (including Hubble) and I can bulb a tech per turn. Say also I have to be 50 turns from a SV (from previous suggestions). Finally, suppose I get an additional 3 techs from RAs. So...I need to research 10 techs in 50 turns. A tech every 5 turns AND building all the SS parts is kinda out there...but it still makes sense. Guess I'll have to rack up on faith (been neglecting that!), sign more RAs, and reach science techs earlier. If I combine all your tips AND set my cities to growth instead of default focus I just MIGHT pull it off. All right, thanks for the tips peoples!
 

Unresolved

King
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Dec 22, 2012
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956
No, I actually don't contradict myself. Even if I DON'T go for military techs, I can't out-tech the AI, so I have to go on the warpath to stop the AI by destroying it. This delays my SV for quite a bit, but at least I don't outright lose.

And I tend to capture AI early cities early in the game since they DOW me first (also it removes other potential competitors) so by mid-game everyone hates me for warmongering.

Finally, sorry I didn't make this clear, but I'm playing G+K.

Okay, that helps a lot. At least I know my advice is valid now :p.

For sub 250 SV, I usually aim for turn 110 Education, turn 160 Scientific Theory and Turn 210 Plastics. I plant 2-3 GS(depending on the timing) and I usually have 6-9 to bulb after I max out my science. I would just skip the GL all together. You're giving up some growth and production potential. Not to mention it'll prime you for higher difficulties. A big part of getting faster science victories is timing you social policies better. Try to open Rationalism ASAP and use the finisher on very late technologies.
 

glory7

King
Joined
Nov 6, 2012
Messages
705
Well...I usually open with 3-city tradition or 5-city liberty. I try to build the GL ASAP and so far haven't failed. Take philosophy as my free tech, usually at t50. Then I go construction for c-bows, currency for markets and/or Petra, and rush education. Often reach education at t100-120. I enter the Renaissance at t150 with either astronomy or acoustics. Then it's often about 40 turns per era: industrial at t190 with scientific theory, modern at t230 with replaceable parts, atomic at t270 with radar, and information at t300 with satellites (I often skip many atomic techs to rush Hubble with GE). Of course, I try to get plastics ASAP and build all the required science buildings as soon as they're available. I also grow my cities to ~20 pop at capital, ~15 pop all other major cities. I often have unhappiness problems; would appreciate advice on how to deal with that also.

Along the way, I also like to hit major military techs fast, such as dynamite or electronics. In fact, I often take electronics for free as rationalism finisher. In my most recent game as Arabia, Greece was the runaway as he had taken over his ENTIRE continent and was allied with every single CS save 2 :eek:. I started on an island separated from the mainland by some cost, but took Ghandi and Theodora over with my camel archers. I don't have the save right now, but lemme tell you: it was heck'a hard plowing through Greece until rocketry and I only won a SV on t360.

hm, if you play GnK, things could be slightly different (actually, much easier for me as I played lots of GK games), but main things still remain same.

First of all, just try tradition 3-4 cities. 4 cities is better but if you don't have good space 3 cities gonna work.

building GL is not a good habit, so I would recommend you not to even try it. Practice games without any pre-renaissance wonder except oracle.

Getting education around t100-120 is good. The difference is after: you want to enter renaissance asap to open rationalism. Rati opener and secularism is really really important. entering renaissance at t150 is too late.

Try to fulfill CS quests, especially culture ones. Do not be afraid of finishing tradition early - it's good.

Most common SP tree is full tradition - pat open and +20 one (right side) - rati open and secularism. For GnK, get free thoughts next. If you can get those policies fast, you are on the right track.

Lots of things are map and civ dependent, but one thing is certain: you want to grow continuously (manage happiness by controlling CS well and exchange lux - check F4 every single turn).

If you aim for t250 SV, you need to hit plastic around t205-210. And public school around t170 at least.

You can find lots of details in previous Game of the Month games - I recommend you to read Tabarnak and AE_'s after action results. They are really good at peaceful fast CV.

And if you need video guide about how to micromanage, check old gotms and tommynt's youtube video. I know that tommy does not talk very friendly in this forum, but it does not mean that you cannot learn from his video.

I learned most of my skills from playing 2-3 gotms by myself, read what others did, retry by myself, and watched tommynt's video followed one by one (I used my laptop to run his youtube and played with my desktop), thinking why he does that. After that, I could do sub 250 SV very easily and even won several medals and did sub200 SV several times.
 
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