How to win with slow troops???

[Zachriel]

Here is an example of sword and pike. Pikes defend the towns of Hakodate and Nagasaki, while sword, catapult and workers follow along the pike roads deep into enemy territory. There are large numbers of sword and pike concealed beneath the pikemen.

Note that Hakodate Mountain has been secured in order to prevent enemy units from occupying it. We will grab Nara Mountain next turn.

 

[Allemand]

Bobgate, the assumption is the Immortals are on the offensive. If you fortify them and wait, your opponent will sit you out and time is on his side.

That's a good example of position warfare, Zachriel. The slow units occupy undefended territory and the defenders must build a force to get it back. Pikemen are good defenders but they are expensive nursemaids for Immortals, costing the same or more (if you are upgrading Warriors then Immortals cost less in production). If the defender has a comparable economy he should be able to match your force, and if he builds only Warriors/Swordsmen and just a few Horsemen he will more than match you. But against the AI you have a good enough strategy.

However, you should be able to send a stack of Immortals against the AI without worrying about losing.

 

[Zachriel]

Originally posted by Allemand
Pikemen are good defenders but they are expensive nursemaids for Immortals, costing the same or more (if you are upgrading Warriors then Immortals cost less in production).

Generally, enemy sword and horse cannot beat fortified pikemen. Assuming veterans, sword win 1/3, horse only win 1/6. If the pike have terrain, then the odds can be much worse for the attacker. Plus any victorious, but no doubt weakened, enemy units will be destroyed by the counterattacking and undamaged units protected by the pikemen. In most situations, combined arms pike and sword will beat an equal number of just sword.

 

[Zachriel]

Originally posted by Allemand
However, you should be able to send a stack of Immortals against the AI without worrying about losing.

That may be true -- depending on the relative strengths of your economies. However, combined arms will allow you to overcome a larger army.

 

[Allemand]

Zachriel, your points are well taken and I agree that Pikemen add a new dimension to the battle, except I think in many instances the attacking Swordsmen will win more than 1/3 unless the terrain is too rough, especially on a larger map. In very rough terrain the defenders best strategy would also be to defend with Pikemen. The Horsemen would not be attacking against improved positions, and may not have a mission until late in the fight. Their mission could be to cut roads and run down wounded units.

In any case, my argument is that Immortals can be at a disadvantage when they are advancing. That's even more valid when the defender uses Pikemen in improved positions. The Pikemen will take the first attacks. One advantage the defender has then is that his Pikemen are fortified, while the attacker must wait a turn to fortify, assuming the defender has use of his roads and the attacker moves only one square at a time.

Both sides will be trying to gain local superiority in numbers, before attacking.

 

[Zachriel]

Originally posted by Allemand
. . . I think in many instances the attacking Swordsmen will win more than 1/3 unless the terrain is too rough,

Veteran sword is 34% v. a fortified veteran pikeman on grassland. Add a river or other terrain and the odds for the pikeman are even better.

Civulator
http://www.columbia.edu/~sdc2002/civulator.html

Pikemen stop sword and horse, and longbow takes out pikemen. Remember though, that immortals attack like longbow. On the other hand, any time your sword or immortal is subject to attack is a time that you should have had (or wished you had ) a pikeman.

 

[Zachriel]

spear stops warrior
sword/horse takes spear
pike stops sword/horse
longbow/knights takes pike
muskets stop longbow/knights

dragoons take muskets
riflemen stop dragoons
(skipped in Civ3)


cavalry take riflemen
infantry stops cavalry
tanks take infantry
mechs stop tanks
armor takes mechs

 

[Higher Game]

Knights 5/2/2? That's too much offence. 5 attack against a pikeman's 3 defence is too much. 4 attack is perfect, but I agree that 3 defence is too much.

And I would recommend making a ton of horsemen and getting chivalry as early as possible. Upgrade the horsemen to knights and then kill them all! Combinded arms are not that good until the infantry/artillery/cavalry combo comes later in the game.

 

[bobgote]

When advancing 'slow' troops, try to keep on better defendable terrain. stick to hills and mountains where possible, jungles and forests and opposite sides of rivers where it's not. A swordsman will not always beat a spearman, especially when it's fortified.

When i use the immortal, i build spearmen only to replace immortals in captured towns (to free up the immortals stationed there). Immortals are the most useful UU and you need to take advantage of this.

 

[The Last Conformist]

A point on human players and the local superority thing; expect to see alot of attempts to attack from unexpected quarters in MP! Since Swordsmen and Pikemen don't move exactly fast even on roads, you'll be in deep trouble if a dozen Immortals suddenly bear down on a moderately defended city.

 

[Zachriel]

Originally posted by The Last Conformist
A point on human players and the local superority thing; expect to see alot of attempts to attack from unexpected quarters in MP! Since Swordsmen and Pikemen don't move exactly fast even on roads, you'll be in deep trouble if a dozen Immortals suddenly bear down on a moderately defended city.

Cool!